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  #1  
Old 07-15-2006, 11:21 AM
weishaupt1776's Avatar
weishaupt1776 weishaupt1776 is offline
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"Money" Created Out Of Thin Air - Endgame

O.K., let's not forget the Terms of use:
Quote:
RULES OF ENGAGMENT

The following maxim shall exist as the supreme law governing debate on the SuiJuris.net message boards: He who leaves the battlefield first looses by default.

A Member initiating (Initiator) a post or responding (Respondent) thereto of which results in a debate especially with regard to Theology or Politics, he/she must be willing and able to participate in a intellectual discussion or debate in respect of the post in question. Initiating of nuisance posts as “cheap shots” is prohibited. In the event SUIJURIS.NET reviews and determines that a member is the Initiator or Respondent regarding a controversial, blatantly false, or unintelligible post, and such has given rise to adversarial commentary wherein the post initiator or respondent willfully disregards his/her duty to respond and adhere to the rules of engagement, then the membership of that particular individual may be subject to suspension. However, if a member has been successfully out-debated that individual’s membership will NOT be subject to suspension.


O.K. This is how it is going to work:

The Initiator is Heidi or anyone else, etc . ..

Shoonra, Bill Smith, etc . . or anyone else at odds w/Heidi is the respondent or vice versa

Initiatormust state a premise and a question

The repondent must state a yes or no answer first

If the answer is in the negative, then grounds in law and in fact must be put forth to show why free indeeds or any other iniators' premise is both illogical and false. Any extraneous information not relevant to the original premise and question will be deleted.

Only one premise at a time. Extraneous premises can only be introduced AFTER the priginal one is debated or answered.
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Last edited by weishaupt1776 : 07-16-2006 at 12:33 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2006, 07:21 PM
David Merrill's Avatar
David Merrill David Merrill is offline
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Wishy-washy Weishaupt.

That's what I am going to think of you as. Swayed around by people who cannot hold their own in the forums, whining to you to make up bogus Rules of Engagement like that!

I wish I would have thought of whining first.


Regards,

David Merrill.
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2006, 08:27 PM
weishaupt1776's Avatar
weishaupt1776 weishaupt1776 is offline
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David, first of all, you have accused me of being wishy washy because of an allegation that others are swaying me for one reason or another

You now have the burden of going forward to show how I am being swayed by others

Who swayed me?
When was I swayed?
Which post triggered me getting swayed?
Why?
How was I swayed as a result

Just facts David. I'm curious to see your ability to present facts and present a logical exposition of such facts which relate to your accusation of how I am wishy washy and was swayed.

Further, you state that as a result, I made up these rules when, in reality - they have been the terms of use since LRG took over.


And, Not one of the above posts addressed HOW money is created out of thin air.

To keep this from a copy/paste fest, I am going to tighten the criteria:

First present the issue

For example:

ISSUE: Is money created out of thin air?

Next, present the rule or authority which supports your position.

for example:

RULE: Federal reserve Publication _______; 12 USC 666, etc. .

Next an analysis

Example
ANALYSIS:

Since Fed Reserve Publication____ and 12 USC ____

say that_______, then ________

NExt conclude

Therefore Money is created out of thin air
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Last edited by weishaupt1776 : 07-15-2006 at 08:33 PM.
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  #4  
Old 07-15-2006, 09:23 PM
2tim215 2tim215 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weishaupt1776
O.K., let's not forget the Terms of use:


O.K. This is how it is going to work:

The Initiator is Heidi or anyone else, etc . ..

Shoonra, Bill Smith, etc . . or anyone else at odds w/Heidi is the respondent or vice versa

Initiatormust state a premise and a question

The repondent must state a yes or no answer first

If the answer is in the negative, then grounds in law and in fact must be put forth to show why free indeeds or any other iniators' premise is both illogical and false. Any extraneous information not relevant to the original premise and question will be deleted.

Only one premise at a time. Extraneous premises can only be introduced AFTER the priginal one is debated or answered.

This seems reasonable to me. It especially is good for someone like myself who hasn't been on the forum that long and who may not be that familiar with the roe. Imho it shouldn't hurt to provide clarification once in a while, especially when you see things getting a little heated. Of course, I may be a minority in thinking along these lines.

2tim215
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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  #5  
Old 07-15-2006, 09:31 PM
Heidi Guedel
 
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Do banks create money which never existed previously?

Does this chart provided by the Federal Reserve demonstrate that money is created out of thin air (new money is added to the money supply by virtue of bookkeeping entries)?:
http://www.federalreserveeducation.o...itCreation.pdf

Please Note that the URL clearly indicates that this chart was prepared and provided by the Federal Reserve itself, for educational purposes, and that the chart itself is labeled:
The Principle of Multiple Deposit Creation
Also see Note at the bottom of the chart indicating that N1, N2, N3, etc. are defined as “individuals”, and “B1, B2, B3” are defined as "Depository Institutions". I presume “depository institutions” are the entities commonly known as “banks”, and are not the Federal Reserve itself.
Analysis of chart:
N1 sells a T-bill to the Fed for $10,000. B1 receives the $10,000 deposit from N1. B1 then lends out 90% of that deposit, or $9,000. That $9,000 is then deposited in B2, which lends out 90% of that $9,000, or $8,100, which ends up deposited in B3. B3 then lends out 90% of that deposit - $7,290, which ends up deposited in B2, etc.
Newly created money is “lent” to a customer and then deposited at another bank, where it is then treated as reserves at that bank, and 90% of that amount is lent out. That amount becomes another deposit, which is then treated as the basis for another 90% “loan”. Thus a series of deposits are created and then loans are piggy-backed one upon the other.
The bottom line of the chart clearly indicates that based upon the first, original $10,000 deposit in B1, $90,000 of new money will be created. It obviously was not all created by the Fed itself - the lending of 90% of each subsequent deposit occurred at each of the various banks (B1; B2; B3, etc).
Note that after the first $10,000, all subsequent deposits consisted of newly created “lent” funds… which were then deposited in a different account (sometimes at a different bank, and sometimes at the same bank at which a previous deposit was made) and then used as the basis for lending out another 90% of that amount, and so on. Truly a “house of cards”… or more like a pyramid of balloons filled with … guess what? Thin air.
Out of curiosity, I went ahead and calculated this process… all the way down to less than 10 cents. And before someone remarks that loans that tiny are never actually made, I submit that banks base their lending upon the aggregate amount of all deposits present in their branch. Therefore, cumulative deposits of small amounts would count.

We can see if the process actually results in $90,000 of newly created money:

10,000 x 90% = 9000
9000 x 90% = 8100
8100 x 90% = 7290
This is where the Fed Res chart stops doing the calculating for us, and the total amount of money created is already:
Sub Total -01 = 24,390 – already more than double the original 10K.

I’ve continued on from there:
7290 x 90% = 6561
6561 x 90% = 5904.90
5904.90 x 90% = 5314.41
5314.41 x 90% = 4782.969

Sub Total – 02 = 22,563.28

4782.969 x 90% = 4304.6721
4304.6721 x 90% = 3874.205
3874.20489 x 90% = 3486.78
3486.7844 x 90% = 3138.106
3138 x 90% = 2824.20
2824.20 x 90% = 2541.78

Sub Total – 03 = 20,169.74

Running Total = 67,123.02

2541.78 x 90% = 2287.602
2287.6 x 90% = 2058.84
2058.84 x 90% = 1852.956
1852.956 x 90% = 1667.6604
1667.66 x 90% = 1500.894
1500.894 x 90% = 1350.8046

Sub Total – 04 =10,718.76

1350.8 x 90% = 1215.72
1215.72 x 90% = 1094.148
1094.148 x 90% = 984.7332
984.7332 x 90% = 886.26
886.25988 x 90% = 797.63
797.63 x 90% = 717.867
717.867 x 90% = 646.08
646.08 x 90% = 581.47
581.472 x 90% = 523.325
523.3248 x 90% = 470.99
471 x 90% = 423.9
423.9 x 90% = 381.51
381.51 x 90% = 343.359
343.359 x 90% = 309.023
309 x 90% = 278.1
278.1 x 90% = 250.29
250.29 x 90% = 225.26

Sub Total – 05 = 10,129.67

Running Total = 87,971.45

225.261 x 90% = 202.7349
202.7349 x 90% = 182.46
182.46 x 90% = 164.214
164.2 x 90% = 147.78
147.78 x 90% = 133.002
133 x 90% = 119.7
119.7 x 90% = 107.73

Sub Total – 06 = 1,057.62

107.73 x 90% = 96.957
96.957 x 90% = 87.26
87.26 x 90% = 78.534
78.534 x 90% = 70.68
70.68 x 90% = 63.612
63.6 x 90% = 57.24
57.24 x 90% = 51.516

Sub Total – 07 = 505.80

Running Total = 89,534.87

51.5 x 90% = 46.35
46.35 x 90% = 41.715
41.7 x 90% = 37.53
37.53 x 90% = 33.777
33.777 x 90% = 30.399
30.3993 x 90% = 27.36
27.35937 x 90% = 24.62
24.62 x 90% = 22.158
22 x 90% = 19.8
19.8 x 90% = 17.82
17.82 x 90% = 16.038
16 x 90% = 14.4
14.4 x 90% = 12.96
12.96 x 90% = 11.664
11.664 x 90% = 10.4976
10.4976 x 90% = 9.45
9.44784 x 90% = 8.50
8.5 x 90% = 7.65
7.65 x 90% = 6.885
6.885 x 90% = 6.1965
6 x 90% = 5.4
5.4 x 90% = 4.86
4.86 x 90% = 4.374
4.374 x 90% = 3.9366
3.9366 x 90% = 3.54
3.54 x 90% = 3.186
3.186 x 90% = 2.8674
2.8674 x 90% = 2.58
2.58 x 90% = 2.322
2.322 x 90% = 2.0898
2 x 90% = 1.8
1.8 x 90% = 1.62
1.62 x 90% = 1.458
1.458 x 90% = 1.3122
1.3 x 90% = 1.17
1.17 x 90% = 1.053

Sub Total – 08 = 449.34

Running Total = 89,984.21

1 x 90% = 0.9
0.9 x 90% = 0.81
0.81 x 90% = 0.729
0.729 x 90% = 0.6561
0.6561 x 90% = 0.59049
0.59 x 90% = 0.531
0.53 x 90% = 0.477
0.477 x 90% = 0.4293
0.4293 x 90% = 0.3864
0.3864 x 90% = 0.3477
0.3477 x 90% = 0.313

Sub total – 09 = 6.17

Running Total - 89,990.38

0.313 x 90% = 0.282
0.282 x 90% = 0.254
0.254 x 90% = 0.2286
0.2286 x 90% = 0.20574
0.20574 x 90% = 0.185166
0.185166 x 90% = 0.1666494
0.1666494 x 90% = 0.1499844
0.1499844 x 90% =0.135
0.135 x 90% = 0.1215
0.1215 x 90% = 0.10935
0.10935 x 90% = 0.098415

Sub Total – 10 = 1.94
Running Total = 89,992.32

Obviously, it would take many more tiny calculations in order to eventually arrive at the total amount of $90,000, but you get the idea. The chart is truthful.
I had to repeatedly round numbers off along the way. Many times the number of decimal places went beyond the capacity of my calculator. Nevertheless, we can see that this repeating process of lending 90% of each successive deposited amount will eventually result in the creation of an additional $90,000 based upon the first deposit of $10,000.
It appears to me that each bank which receives a subsequent deposit creates the next 90% in newly created money to lend… and so forth.

Therefore, I believe Redcloud is incorrect when he states that only the Federal Reserve actually creates new money, and Bill Smith is also incorrect when he claims that the “vapor money theory” AKA “Money Created out of Thin Air theory” is false, or stupid, or whatever other pejorative he has frequently used.
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  #6  
Old 07-15-2006, 10:25 PM
PANICPASS PANICPASS is offline
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.............................

Last edited by PANICPASS : 07-16-2006 at 09:54 AM.
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  #7  
Old 07-15-2006, 10:37 PM
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weishaupt1776 weishaupt1776 is offline
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Heidi, thank you for a most distilled and reasonable premise

Okay, this is good.

Heidi is the Initiator

Her post is the only premise we will be addressing

anything off point which does not relate exactly to Heidi's post will be deleted


Now, REDCLOUD and Bill smith or any other respondent - you have to address Heidi's post on a point by point basis as to how and why her premise is wrong

Declarations are insufficient and long copy/pastes of things DEVOID of an expository explanation is insufficient and will be deleted

You must support your answers and show why Heidi is wrong
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  #8  
Old 07-15-2006, 10:47 PM
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David Merrill David Merrill is offline
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Weis deleted my post. Not a very good start.
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2006, 11:25 PM
Heidi Guedel
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weishaupt1776
Okay, this is good.

Heidi is the Initiator

Her post is the only premise we will be addressing

anything off point which does not relate exactly to Heidi's post will be deleted


Now, REDCLOUD and Bill smith or any other respondent - you have to address Heidi's post on a point by point basis as to how and why her premise is wrong

Declarations are insufficient and long copy/pastes of things DEVOID of an expository explanation is insufficient and will be deleted

You must support your answers and show why Heidi is wrong

I hope that people can also contribute info which supports my post if they would like to.
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2006, 11:40 PM
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David Merrill David Merrill is offline
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http://Friends-n-Family-Research.inf...y_of_Money.zip
fractionalized currency


Of course comic books are powerful proof - I just watched a rerun of "Unbreakable" with Bruce Willis last night...

Quote:
=Pink Floyd - Brain Damage

The Paper holds their folded faces to the floor,
And everyday the paperboy brings more.

See attachment.


Regards,

David Merrill.


P.S. Sorry about not reading your repressive posts Whishy Washy Weis. It took a moment to learn this cool song! Anyway, if that is correct that you behave like that without being prodded by Freeindeed's whining, then Admin should remove you from Moderator!

Last edited by David Merrill : 07-16-2006 at 06:53 AM. Reason: attach song
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