recorded conversations used as contracts

[cooper998]

Hello Suijuris,

Ok, here it is, my first encounter with an attorney/debt collector.

My daughter just received a notice from an attorney advising that they are acting as a debt collector and are attempting to collect on a debt for a company called Budget Readers Services Inc.

I've been reading posts on this site for quite awhile but don't recall seeing one with circumstances similar to hers.

Here is a bit of background: she had subscribed to a bunch of magazines previously and one day awhile back received a call from Budget Readers Services Inc in which she was told something along the lines that they owed her additional magazines would she like to receive them. My daughter says she paused for a moment and said "uh, ok".

They then asked for her credit card number so they could update their files (I know, this should have sounded the alarm bells...she knows that now as well, trust me) so she gave it to them. My daughter says that she asked them twice if she was going to be charged and they said no, they just needed to update their files.

A couple of days later my daughter canceled her credit card so it was never charged and she then started receiving calls from Budget Readers Services Inc. She says she talked with them on one occasion and they played her a recording in which it is alleged that she verbally agreed to a contract, specifically the part where she says "uh, ok".

However, my daughter tells me the recording is misleading in that the entire conversation from start to finish was not replayed for her, only the part where is appears as though she consents to the contract and not the part where she twice asks if she is going to be charged and they say no.

The attorney's letter advises her that she has 30 days to respond and she can request verification of the debt, the right not to be called, etc, etc along with a link to the Colorado FDCPA act. We live in Illinois.

I have a feeling that the VOD they will provide is only going to be a written transcript of select portions of the recorded telephone conversation ...by the way, I asked her if she was advised that she was going to be recorded and she said no.

Seeing as though a recorded conversation can be easily edited, especially with today's technology, how binding would a recorded conversation be? I'm thinking that when she requests the verification of debt she should ask for a document with a signature...or would her giving her credit card number qualify as a signature act even though she was misled into giving it?

Also, I've tried several times to download Jersee's VOD but haven't had any luck. Would anyone be able to send me a copy please?

I'm not looking for someone to give us a magic bullet to fight this issue, but a nudge in the right direction on what to study would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

cooper998

[David Merrill]

Slimy - attorneys.

Your daughter best understand Refusal for Cause. The more she participates, the worse off she is.

The main problem as I see it is she is letting the attorney in opposition explain to her what her rights are. As long as she allows that kind of color of authority conditioning in her life, she will be the victim as exemplified here.

The members here understand better than to listen to attorneys Shoonra and Lawdog for any kind of legal advice. - Only to glean understanding of the many chinks in the armor in the Collections Industry.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[mrg]

In Illinois both parties must consent to the recording of a phone call.

(720 ILCS 5/14‑2) (from Ch. 38, par. 14‑2)
Sec. 14‑2. Elements of the offense; affirmative defense.
(a) A person commits eavesdropping when he:
(1) Knowingly and intentionally uses an eavesdropping device for the purpose of hearing or recording all or any part of any conversation or intercepts, retains, or transcribes electronic communication unless he does so (A) with the consent of all of the parties to such conversation or electronic communication or

(B) in accordance with Article 108A or Article 108B of the "Code of Criminal Procedure of 1963", approved August 14, 1963, as amended;

Article 108A of the Code of Criminal Procedure...requires a court order authorizing the use of an eavesdropping device.

108B-1 Definitions

You might want to look at the whole Criminal Code linked in blue above, because there may be remedy for you, and criminal sanctions for their unlawful eavesdropping.

There may also be "federal" and state wire fraud violations involved.

The "attorneys" are scamming.

You need to respond within the 30 days.

[cooper998]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Your daughter best understand Refusal for Cause. The more she participates, the worse off she is.

Thanks for the reply. I was reading the letter she received and all of a sudden it jumped out at me, there is no signature on it, only the typewritten name of the law firm.

Since the letter is asking for payment isn't it therefore a presentment?

If so, then wouldn't the lack of an endorsement be a basis for Refusal for Cause?

(810 ILCS 5/3‑501) (from Ch. 26, par. 3‑501)
Sec. 3‑501. Presentment.
(3) Without dishonoring the instrument, the party to whom presentment is made may (i) return the instrument for lack of a necessary endorsement...

I'm thinking she needs to make copies of everything, then send the original back with a cover letter stating "Refusal for Cause without dishonor", signed, notarized, with certificate of service, etc.

Also, since she is in Illinois and the lawyer for these sleaze bags is in Colorado, I'm not 100% sure but I'm thinking she would fall under Illinois jurisdiction...someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not all that spun-up on that sort of thing yet.

Anyway, I looked at the Illinois Criminal Code and it says "(j) The use of a telephone monitoring device by...at least one person who is an active party to the marketing or opinion research conversation or telephone solicitation conversation being monitored" is exempt from the eavesdropping statutes.

However, it also states..."No communication or conversation or any part, portion, or aspect of the communication or conversation made, acquired, or obtained, directly or indirectly, under this exemption (j), may be, directly or indirectly, furnished to any law enforcement officer, agency, or official for any purpose or used in any inquiry or investigation, or used, directly or indirectly, in any administrative, judicial, or other proceeding, or divulged to any third party".

Again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it that means that even though they allege to have a recording of a verbal contract, it can't be used, and they can't share that information with the lawyer/debt collector since he/she is in fact a 3rd party?

Then again, since they appear to be in Colorado I guess that would depend on the statutes there...ah yes, more research to be conducted!

BTW, my daughter has been in school all day but she will be actively engaged in this, trust me.

Sorry for the long post, didn't realize I'd written so much.

Thanks again,

Lou
a.k.a. cooper998

[cooper998]

mrg,

Thank you, I really appreciate it! I'm going to go back and reread the statutes, you've given me a couple more things to look into.

Lou
a.k.a. cooper998

[David Merrill]

The Libel of Review simply sets the person up for future Refusals for Cause. Pay special attention to the example Clerk Instruction in the middle.

One thing; do not bother explaining why. Just get it done within three days. I teach get it done immediately. The suitor gets the Registered Mail stickers in advance and plugs the #s into the clerk instruction and addresses the envelopes and off to the post office before it closes. They learn to do it my way - immediately - real fast because that night when their head hits the pillow, next thing is the alarm. It is over. Also one suitor developed a thrifty method - the objective is to be able to prove you acted timely. Timeliness is the key element; after three days you agree to all terms like no endorsement etc...

Not that it is too late to get your daughter's objection on the record. It is just these attorneys understand the rules and do not want your daughter to understand them. If they can find a way to defeat the R4C they will and if they can convince your daughter there is nothing meritorious to her process and court - all the better.

Look at my signature - Shoonra wants us to believe the Pope nullified the Magna Charta - pull up the link and read Section 34. Now look carefully at that attachment R4C to the Department of Justice - and note that Logerwell is admitting the suitor has the power to enter a default judgment and is stipulating he wants by contract 10 days notice before publication of the default - at the county clerk and recorder. That contract proposal is R4C and the default was entered according to the federal summons.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[robhalford88]

You can also look into the formation of a contract.
Did you daughter,
Knowingly and willingly consent?
Did she have the terms and conditions provided BEFOREHAND?
Did she get a copy of the purported contract provided to her?

etc.

This won't be that hard to sort.

In fact, are they committing attempted mail fraud?
Demanding money with menaces?

Tell her not to buckle, she is in the drivers seat.

No, bernie/shoonra, she doesn't need a liscense for it!

[David Merrill]

From PM by permission.

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Yes. Very good understanding.

She would pay $39 for the misc. file and have the originals marked up by the federal clerk. She should also have a copy of her own marked up by both the federal clerk and:

1) the presenter; who is in Colorado? impractical

2) Registered Mail - Return Receipt generated. Get the Registered Mail sticker, form and RR before hand, copy and include in all three document packages - original and two copies. Take the US-marked original and her copy to the post office and place $1.05 Certificate of Mailing on both - having the postal clerk cancel both before putting the Presenter's red ink original R4C into the RM envelope.

Get it? Prove it happened and when, and convince the Presenter (defrauding and illegally recording people then trying to convince them of a constructive contract) that she can go to the US cognizance for proof she will have nothing more to do with this badgering/billing.

The markings of the US courthouse will almost certainly be enough to convince them to back off. And maybe enough Information for the federal judge to pass it on to the Illinois and Colorado Attorney Generals for prosecution.



Regards,

David Merrill.

I would like your permission to move this PM onto the thread?

Originally Posted by cooper998

Apologies for the late reply, it's been one of those days. Well, everything is ready so tomorrow morning we're going to head out and take care of business.

I've received a lot of good information from a few people and really appreciate all of it so mucho thanks to everyone.

Also, I had overlooked the last line where you asked about posting this PM in the thread. By all means please do so as there may be others who could use the information.

I need to run, thanks again and I'll post an update with how thing go i the morning.

xxxxxx
a.k.a. cooper998

[spartan]

Under Dispute of Debt

I would have also demanded a copy of the whole and complete audio recording and a transcript of it with an Affidavit by the plaintiff stating under Oath that the recording-transcript is accurate and complete.

I would have sent such demand to the bastards
stating that unless you receive such, you charge them with fraud and would proceed accordingly.


I would have asked the victim of fraud to write her Affidavit of facts and mail to the liars as well by certified mail.


Make sure it is not to a PO box.

[spartan]

Originally Posted by Pure Trust

[I would] Sue them for fraud, right now.

Hold your mule, man.

You know pro se have no chance to stand before lying
asses of attorneys.

Give /post/ A-Z, then they can follow.

Otherwise, it is a ride on a pony without wheat.