Banking and SSNs

I am under the impression that government agency's can only legally require a SSN for a very limited amount of reasons. Also I am under the impression that a bank which receives FDIC insurance becomes a sort of quasi-government agency. Now I don't know what the entire list of things that the government can require an SSN for is, but I am quite certain the bank accounts are not on that list.

Now am I making this up or maybe a little right or what?

My train of thought leads to me believe that if I am correct that the following may be a fairly lucrative business.

1. Get rid of my SSN and declare myself a nonresident alien.
2. I try to open a bank account with no SSN
3. Get refused AND get the refuser to sign under perjury that they refused for the above reason.
4. Sue for "insert criminal activity"
5. Repeat

Now if that happens 2 really good things may happen.

1. It actually might end up being lucrative enough to support me.
2. Get enough attention high enough up to start getting the word out about SSNs, banks and the unlawfulness of our system.

So how about it?

[Shoonra]

While the law says the government is limited in when and how it can require you to reveal your SSN, there is no such legal limit on private enterprises, especially when they have plausible reasons for asking.

The banks can insist on your SSN because they are supposed to report interest earnings and other info to the IRS. If a bank wants your SSN and you refuse to give it, the bank can tell you to take your business elsewhere (lotsa luck finding a bank that doesn't ask). Similarly with a job application, because the employer is legally required to withhold payroll taxes and make reports to the IRS.

So what your saying is that a bank which receives FDIC insurance is not quasi-governmental or not voluntarily becoming a government franchisee similar the to SSA and people?

[psholtz]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

While the law says the government is limited in when and how it can require you to reveal your SSN, there is no such legal limit on private enterprises, especially when they have plausible reasons for asking.

Pretty huge double standard there, don't you think?

Corporations obtain their charters from the State (government), and therefore aren't exactly "private" enterprises, in the sense that you're trying to use the word. They are, rather, legal fictions and creations of the State and are subject to its rules and regulations.

The banks can insist on your SSN because they are supposed to report interest earnings and other info to the IRS.

Well, see.. that's exactly what I'm talking about.

A private enterprise would not be under any such compulsion to reveal anything to the IRS or anyone else for that matter.

Never mind, further, that the IRS itself is a private corporation.

Similarly with a job application, because the employer is legally required to withhold payroll taxes and make reports to the IRS.

This is true only if the employer is acting as an agency of the (federal) government, and you - in your role as an "employee" at that firm - are likewise an employee of the federal government.

Granted, that's who 99.9% of all business in America work, but welcome to the Alice-in-Wonderland world we live in.

[psholtz]

Originally Posted by MDR

So what your saying is that a bank which receives FDIC insurance is not quasi-governmental or not voluntarily becoming a government franchisee similar the to SSA and people?

Good points.

It makes sense in my head but I simple don't know that much yet.

And btw having no SSN (and being a nonresident alien) would mean that employers would not have to withhold from me since I would not being an "employee" as defined in the IRC, earnign no "wages" ( since my income would have not connection with "trade or business" ) and me not being an "employee" would not legally make them an "employer" (someone who has employees) under the IRC, if im not mistaken.

Like I said im still a beginner at this, looking for some info.

[Shuftin]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

Similarly with a job application, because the employer is legally required to withhold payroll taxes and make reports to the IRS.

YOU ARE OH SO WRONG

Social Security and Social Security Numbers are voluntary. There is no law that Mandates (forces) a person to get a Social Security Number or have a Social Security Number. To pay into Social Security is strictly voluntary.

Some may say "How can I get a job without a Social Security Number?" NOTE: By law a Company must "ASK" you for your Social Security Number. After the "ASKING" the law has been satisfied. There is no law that Mandates (forces) a person to give the Company a Social Security Number.

What ever you do is Voluntary. NOTE: It is against the law for a Company to "Not Hire You" or to fire you for withholding your Social Security Number. Because a Social Security Number is Voluntary you may either "Not Have One" or, by choice, choose not to use it.

Some Religious Sects believe that the Social Security Number is the number of the beast and they either don't get Social Security Numbers or don't use them. If a Company refuses to hire you or fire you for withholding your Social Security Number then a law suit for Religious Discrimination is in order (That is a law).

CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (CFR)

Title 26: Internal Revenue

PART 31—EMPLOYMENT TAXES AND COLLECTION OF INCOME TAX AT SOURCE

Subpart E—Collection of Income Tax at Source

§ 31.3402(p)-1 Voluntary withholding agreements.

(a) In general. An employee and his employer MAY enter into an AGREEMENT under section 3402(b) to provide for the withholding of income tax upon payments of amounts described in paragraph (b)(1) of §31.3401(a)–3, made after December 31, 1970. An AGREEMENT may be entered into under this section only with respect to amounts which are includible in the gross income of the employee under section 61, and must be applicable to all such amounts paid by the employer to the employee. The amount to be withheld pursuant to an AGREEMENT under section 3402(p) shall be determined under the rules contained in section 3402 and the regulations thereunder. See §31.3405(c)–1, Q&A–3 concerning agreements to have more than 20-percent Federal income tax withheld from eligible rollover distributions within the meaning of section 402.

(b) Form and duration of AGREEMENT. (1)(i) Except as provided in subdivision (ii) of this subparagraph, an employee who DESIRES to enter into an AGREEMENT under section 3402(p) shall furnish his employer with Form W–4 (withholding exemption certificate) executed in accordance with the provisions of section 3402(f) and the regulations thereunder. The furnishing of such Form W–4 shall constitute a REQUEST for withholding.

(ii) In the case of an employee who DESIRES to enter into an AGREEMENT under section 3402(p) with his employer, if the employee performs services (in addition to those to be the subject of the AGREEMENT) the remuneration for which is subject to mandatory income tax withholding by such employer, or if the employee WISHES to specify that the AGREEMENT terminate on a specific date, the employee shall furnish the employer with a request for withholding which shall be signed by the employee, and shall contain—

( a ) The name, address, and social security number of the employee making the request,

( b ) The name and address of the employer,

( c ) A statement that the employee DESIRES withholding of Federal income tax, and applicable, of qualified State individual income tax (see paragraph (d)(3)(i) of §301.6361–1 of this chapter (Regulations on Procedures and Administration)), and

( d ) If the employee DESIRES that the AGREEMENT terminate on a specific date, the date of termination of the agreement.

If accepted by the employer as provided in subdivision (iii) of this subparagraph, the REQUEST shall be attached to, and constitute part of, the employee's Form W–4. An employee who furnishes his employer a REQUEST for withholding under this subdivision shall also furnish such employer with Form W–4 if such employee does not already have a Form W–4 in effect with such employer.

(iii) No REQUEST for withholding under section 3402(p) shall be effective as an AGREEMENT between an employer and an employee until the employer accepts the REQUEST by commencing to withhold from the amounts with respect to which the REQUEST was made.

(2) An AGREEMENT under section 3402 (p) shall be effective for such period as the employer and employee mutually AGREE upon. However, either the employer or the employee may terminate the AGREEMENT prior to the end of such period by furnishing a signed written notice to the other. Unless the employer and employee agree to an earlier termination date, the notice shall be effective with respect to the first payment of an amount in respect of which the agreement is in effect which is made on or after the first “status determination date” (January 1, May 1, July 1, and October 1 of each year) that occurs at least 30 days after the date on which the notice is furnished. If the employee executes a new Form W–4, the REQUEST upon which an AGREEMENT under section 3402 (p) is based shall be attached to, and constitute a part of, such new Form W–4.

(86 Stat. 944, 26 U.S.C. 6364; 68A Stat. 917, 26 U.S.C. 7805)

[T.D. 7096, 36 FR 5216, Mar. 18, 1971, as amended by T.D. 7577, 43 FR 59359, Dec. 20, 1978; T.D. 8619, 60 FR 49215, Sept. 22, 1995]

[trooper2ls]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

"The banks can insist on your SSN because they are supposed to report interest earnings and other info to the IRS."

Nice try, Shoonra .. what you said is not an outright lie...but very misleading. Written like a trained attorner. To open an interest bearing account you need one.

The trick is to open a non-interest bearing checking account. I have one and the bank I do business with (Bank of America) did not require one. I have tried with a few smaller local banks and they are not as willing. Large banks know what the laws actually say.

Additionally, my mother worked for NCSU for 18 years in the foreign student affairs office and just after the patriot act was passed they started having problems with exchange students not being able to function due to the mis-interpretation of the law. The university provost office was able to "educate" local banks and businesses which then allowed these foreign students with no SSN's to obtain accounts and rent apartments, etc.

A few links on the subject of B of A and their policy .. and the fact that department of homeland security (what a joke) is pissed... but the law is the law.

http://www.news10.net/display_story.aspx?storyid=24433

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251970,00.html

Bottom line is major banks know the law, smaller ones are generally ignorant of it. But keep in mind that any private business does not have to do business with you. It is up to you to sue them if you believe your rights have been violated.

..J

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

While the law says the government is limited in when and how it can require you to reveal your SSN, there is no such legal limit on private enterprises, especially when they have plausible reasons for asking.

The banks can insist on your SSN because they are supposed to report interest earnings and other info to the IRS. If a bank wants your SSN and you refuse to give it, the bank can tell you to take your business elsewhere (lotsa luck finding a bank that doesn't ask). Similarly with a job application, because the employer is legally required to withhold payroll taxes and make reports to the IRS.

MDR,

Through that FDIC connection, what Shoonra is saying is that the Fed is a private banking corporation. Because it is a central bank for the US, and its stock certificates are designed to depreciate it is deemed by the Supreme Court to be an Instrumentality of the US too. And as such, the governors report to Congress regularly.

Here is another approach to the same model.

The remedy - redeeming lawful money instead of private credit from the Fed - has always been in place.

They [FRNs] shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand...

It is only through endorsing private credit, by signing the backside of your paychecks, that you accrue any tax liability with the Fed at all. However the Supreme Court has also ruled that accepting the benefits of Social Security subjects one to the Internal Revenue Code as well, as the SSA is considered a form of taxation too.

Upon that ruling the attorneys, like Shoonra, will place a policy that requires you grant prima facie evidence you are accepting the benefits of Social Security to put that burden to File a Return in play.

However, if you redeem lawful money by non-endorsing your paychecks, then you accrue no tax liability and reduce your SS activity to simple contract, like insurance.

"According to international law it has long been established that, although a person who claims to be the owner of a ship is bound by the character fastened upon her by the flag, under which he has chosen to let her pass, captors are not affected by the flag, but are entitled to go behind it, and to show the true character of the ship by reference to the substantial interest in it, the effective control over it, and the real proprietorship of it." Prize Law During the World War, James Wilford Garner, MacMillian Co., (1927) § 284 pgs. 378, 379, quote of Sir Samuel in the "Kankakee, Hoching and Genesee," British Prize Court 1918. See 2 Benedict [6th Edition] § 400, pgs. 92 & 93. 254 U.S. 671 @ P. 689 Admiralty Rules of Practice - Claim-How Verified-Rule 25.

For example I have already contributed the minimum 40+ quarters of SSI premiums. I have no Social Security Number but in the future, I can still get SSA benefits. Like insurance. I paid in premiums and can make claims.

There is a form for opening a bank account without a SSN but I have never spoken with somebody who actually did this. After you have gotten rid of your SSN like I have, ask the customer assistance official plug in a bogus # to fill the field. This will allow the software to proceed on the presumption you are a US citizen. The next screen has a field for foreign nationals and instruct the bank help to scroll up and find "USA". Click USA as a foriegn nation to the US and then go back and delete the bogus SSN.

One word of warning, I was drawn completely on a significant Line of Credit when I told my credit union that I had no SSN. They just said I had to have one. I told them I did not have to have one. So they closed the account and forgave the Line of Credit. They called my father a few months later and asked him what my SSN was? My father would not have told them even if I had one and he knew it.

Especially with people redeeming lawful money everywhere in America, the banks are clinging to policies outside the law, under the collections processes of the IRS and Fed. Understand how to get rid of your SSN and hopefully you will be depositing a significant enough paycheck to open the account they will cringe at turning away the business.




Regards,

David Merrill.

[TheIntelCritic]

I read some of the attached documents in this thread regarding banking accounts and social security numbers, etc.

With the Patriot Act, you can't open a bank account with a social security number, a TIN, or some other identifying number.

As far as I'm concerned, getting a bank account without a social security number is now impossible.