Cert Mail/RRR Refused with STRANGE Circumstances

Hey Guys newbie TBNLady here. Great site!

On 1/19/05 I sent a VOD Cert. Mail/RRR. According to the usps.com tracking system it was “delivered” 1/24/05. On 3/19/05 it was returned, marked “REFUSED” by a USPS sticker. The return address is circled and “refused” is written on envelope with an arrow pointing to return address. The RRR appears to be unsigned but tampered with. The RRR has been taped back on. So I checked the usps.com site again for an update, it has not changed and states the same date of delivery. I’m going to generate an affidavit. Does anyone have an opinion regarding USPS procedures under these circumstances? For example, any forms or written statements that should be conveyed or gathered as further evidence. It’s “delivered” and then returned (2) two months later!?

Thanks!

TBNLady

you might want to call the post office and check and see what they say.

you can send it again. CMRRR and try sending a copy throught regular mail at the same time. use a unmarked envelope.

was this for a OC or CA?

who was it?

CORRECTION:

I just received another call from the Post Office, and they say now that mail can be refused if it is unopened:

From the Domestic Mail Manual:

1.0 Basic Standards
1.1Delivery to Addressee

Addressees may control delivery of their mail. Without a contrary order, the mail is delivered as addressed. Mail addressed to several persons may be delivered to any one of them.
1.2Refusal at Delivery

The addressee may refuse to accept a mailpiece when it is offered for delivery.
1.3Refusal After Delivery

After delivery, an addressee may mark a mailpiece “Refused” and return it within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened. Mail that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision may be returned to the sender only if it is enclosed in a new envelope or wrapper with a correct address and new postage. The following may not be refused and returned postage-free after delivery:

a. Pieces sent as registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD), and return receipt for merchandise mail.

b. Response mail to the addressee’s sales promotion, solicitation, announcement, or other advertisement that was not refused when offered to the addressee.
1.4Mail Withheld From Delivery

An addressee may request the postmaster, in writing, to withhold from delivery for a period not to exceed 2 years any foreign letter or printed matter with a specified name or address on the outside.
1.5Addressee Identification

If a person claiming to be the addressee of certain mail is unknown to the delivery employee, the mail may be withheld pending identification of the claimant.
1.6Remailing Returned Mail

Generally, a returned mailpiece that was undeliverable-as-addressed or refused by the addressee may not be remailed unless it is placed in a new envelope or wrapper with a correct address and new postage. A returned shortpaid mailpiece can have the necessary additional postage affixed to the original piece and does not have to be placed in a new envelope or wrapper.
1.7Express Mail and Accountable Mail

The following specific conditions also apply to the delivery of Express Mail and accountable mail (registered, certified, insured for more than $50, or COD, as well as mail for which a return receipt or a return receipt for merchandise is requested or for which the sender has specified restricted delivery):

a. The recipient (addressee or addressee’s representative) may obtain the sender’s name and address and may look at the mailpiece while held by the USPS employee before accepting delivery and endorsing the delivery receipt.

b. The mailpiece may not be opened or given to the recipient before the recipient signs and legibly prints his or her name on the delivery receipt (and return receipt, if applicable) and returns the receipt(s) to the USPS employee.

c. Suitable identification can be required of the recipient (if not known to the USPS employee) before delivery of the mailpiece.

d. When delivery is not restricted at the sender’s request, mail addressed to a person at a hotel, apartment house, etc., may be delivered to any person in a position to whom mail for that location is usually delivered.

e. USPS responsibility ends when the mailpiece is delivered to the recipient (or another party, subject to 1.7d and 2.0 through 8.0).

f. A notice is left for a mailpiece that cannot be delivered. If the piece is not called for or redelivery is not requested, the piece is returned to the sender after 15 days (5 days for Express Mail, 30 days for COD) unless the sender specifies fewer days on the piece.

g. A hand stamp approved by the postmaster may be used to provide the signature and name of the individual or organization receiving the mailpiece. In accordance with the electronic signature capture process, the hand stamp must be sized to fit within the Signature and Printed Name blocks on Form 3849. The stamp must not overlap into the delivery office information section or the Delivery Address block of the form. To obtain approval for such a stamp, the company must submit a written statement to the postmaster that the person whose name appears on the stamp is the person authorized to accept accountable mail, accompanied by a sample of the authorized employee’s signature that can be verified against the signature on the stamp. After approval, the stamped signature and name are acceptable only if a clean, legible impression is provided within the Signature and Printed Name blocks on Form 3849. On mail addressed to a federal or state official, the stamp need show only the name and location of the accepting organization. In these cases, the stamp should fit within the Printed Name and Delivery Address block of Form 3849 but must not overlap into the Signature block or barcode sections.
2.0 Delivery to Addressee’s Agent
2.1Basic Standard

Unless otherwise directed, an addressee’s mail may be delivered to an employee, to a competent member of the addressee’s family, or to any person authorized to represent the addressee. A person or several persons may designate another to receive their mail.

Cobra7 are you ready for another tangled web?

It’s a CA.
Attention, LLC (Conn.) – Principle (as far as I can tell): James F. Richards
Demand presentment postmarked 12/10/2004

On 1/12/05 a SECOND Demand is posted by:
West Asset Management, LLC (Delaware) – SAME PRINCPLE
NO mini-Miranda, stating “formerly Attention, LLC” w/settlement offer good for 30 days!

Mr. Henry Bowman:

Green card was never returned and was taped back on envelope unsigned. I think the carrier may have forgotten to have it signed and the target took this opportunity to send it back. See - I made the mistake of sending a VOD to West Asset but only used Delivery Confirmation. As far as I was concerned, the Demand was from Attention, LLC - not my problem that they want to play musical chairs with their business names and addresses!

Don’t have a ph# for the USPS IG (send it if you got it), but called the 800#. “Customer Service” claims that the recipient can return a package, even if signed, as long as it’s unopened. I guess that’s the regulation regarding the return-postage – not the issue. Anyway, she couldn’t really answer any of my queries, but did document my situation for internal review and gave me a confirmation#. IMHO this is not at all satisfactory.

Open to opinions on the type or wording for my affidavit. I’m planning on redirecting the VOD to West Asset Management with a copy of the affidavit, usps.com tracking confirmation of delivery, copies of the returned envelope from Attention, LLC and whatever I can get out of the USPS in writing. Any thoughts?

You guys rock!

The Lady

SEE CORRECTION ABOVE!

There is another way to accomplish mailing, and it is more foolproof, and actually cheaper than Certified:

There is a proof of mailing that costs .90 cents.

They put the postmark stamp on it, and it is sent.

You do not have to use a return address, according to the lady I spoke with this morning.

If they open it, they cannot send it back to you unless they put it in a new package, and then it would prove that they read it...

HB

4.0 Return Address
4.1Purpose

[5-13-04] The return address tells the USPS where the sender of a mailpiece wants it returned if the piece cannot be delivered.
4.2Address Elements

[5-13-04] The return address contains elements corresponding to those for the delivery address. A return address is required in specific circumstances (see 4.4). If the sender’s name is not included in the return address, another clear designation (apartment, suite, or room number) is required to ensure proper handling of ancillary services and/or return of the piece. ZIP Codes (5-digit or ZIP+4) are required in the return address of all mail on which postage is paid with precanceled stamps or company permit imprint, and in the sender’s return address on Periodicals mail when “Address Service Requested” is specified. Official mail (penalty mail) also requires a ZIP Code in the return address.
4.3Ancillary Services

The USPS uses the return address to provide ancillary services requested by the mailer (e.g., “Return Service Requested”). The return address on any mailpiece endorsed for an ancillary service must identify where the piece is to be returned and where the mailer is prepared to pay applicable postage and fees for pieces returned or for ancillary service provided at the mailer’s request. A domestic return address must be placed in the upper left corner of the address side of the piece or the upper left corner of the addressing area.
4.4Required Use

[5-13-04] Except as provided in 4.2, the sender’s domestic return address must appear legibly on:

a. Mail of any class, when its return and/or an address correction service is requested.

b. Official mail.

c. Mail paid with precanceled stamps.

d. Matter bearing a company permit imprint.

e. Priority Mail.

f. Periodicals in envelopes or wrappers.

g. Package Services (except unendorsed Bound Printed Matter).

h. Registered mail.

i. Insured mail.

j. Collect on delivery (COD) mail.

k. Certified mail if a return receipt is requested.

l. Express Mail if a return receipt is requested. The return address on the Express Mail label meets this standard.


*****************************


So if you just want to deliver your mail, and don't want it back, as is our case with service of documents, you don't have to use a return address according to the above.

HB

I would send two copies, one CMRRR and one through reg mail and pay the .90 for proof.

[sadie]

Also

In your letter you should head it to

James Richards (whatever his title)
West Asset Management, LLC
Attention, LLC
1234 YXZ Blvd
Anywhere, OH 12345

and any and all affiliates

jointly, individually, personally

NOTICE

Then the body of your letter

Any reference to them in your letter should also say "and any and all affiliates"


These places like Alegis, Sherman etc have 20 or 30 companies and they just keep passing things around hoping to wear you down


I have used it on a few and it has stopped.

Good idea HB. I actually think the proof of mailing may be the better way altho I didn't understand it til just now.

I would go ahead and put at the bottom of the letter a certificate of mailing just like you do in court documents


CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I certify that the foregoing was caused to be served by United States mail, first-class postage prepaid, to (name and address mailed to ) on _______________________,(date)


__________________________
Your Signature

you can also fax your VoD ahead of time.

your fax's output of confirmation will serve as proof of delivery.

back that up with paper copy of course.

i believe i dealt with attention LLC. i sent them a VoD by fax & REGISTERED mail and ain't never heard from them again.

jon

also:

1.3 states in part:

The following may not be refused and returned postage-free after delivery

1.3(a)

Pieces sent as registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD), and return receipt for merchandise mail.

lastly,

return it within a reasonable time

my question here: what is a reasonable time? i'd say two months is UNreasonable!

jon