Banks v IRS????

#1 05-17-2004, 11:34 PM

Let's pit these devils against each other.

Banks keep saying they have our "money," that the "loan" us "money," and that we owe them our "money" to pay our "debts," right? That "our" "debts" are the result of them lending us "their" "money."

Well, that's NOT what the IRS says:

Internal Revenue Manual
9.7.2.8.1 (07-15-2002)
Property Subject to Administrative Forfeiture 

Property may be forfeited administratively if it includes the following:
a. personal property that does not exceed $500,000 in (aggregate) value
b. monetary instruments within the meaning of 31 USC §5312(a)(3), regardless of their value (bank accounts are not "monetary instruments")

Now, hold that thought and let's run to 31 USC...

Sec. 5312. - Definitions and application
(a)
In this subchapter -
(3) ''monetary instruments'' means -
(A) United States coins and currency; 

Now, slap me silly and call me Susan, but it they ain't holdin', and never "lent" me "United States coin and currency," just what the hell did go on?

Clever rascals. They'll take our "bank accounts" while simultaneously NOT taking our "money."

Can't wait to use THAT in my next letter to a "debt collector."

Let THEM argue with the IRS for a change.

Randy

#2 05-17-2004, 11:41 PM

I believe FRNs are included in the definition of United States coins and currency. I think I read that in&HJR 192.

Yes, that's what Barron's Legal Dictionary says:

All legal tender is money, but all money is not legal tender. Congress has the power to determie what constitutes legal tender.& Under 31 USC 392 all coins and currencies of the United States (including FRNs and circulating notes fo Federal Reserve Banks and national banking associations ) are legal tender.

#3 05-18-2004, 12:00 AM

&

Also see:& 31 USC Section 5112.

There is NO MONEY!!!! and,&we do not have any money.& The only money that we have is gold and silver in our possession. As you well know, FRNs are totally worthless.

Ice · #4 05-18-2004, 12:13 AM

The question is: Is there a difference between "Monetary Instrument" and "Legal Tender"??

FRN's are "obligations of the UNITED STATES"... does that make them "Monetary Instruments", "Legal Tender" or BOTH.

Does the definition given for "Monetary Instruments" in Randy's post suggest that ONLY Constitutional Money is a "Monetary Instrument"??... or can it be other things also?

Ya gotta nail this one down.

&

#5 05-18-2004, 08:26 AM

Just got my call....gotta go play truck-driver.

Didn't have a chance to put this in a "logical" order. Then again, after you've read them, you'll realize there is NO "logic."& I.E., money/currency/legal tender/notes of obligation ARE taxable. Then again, no, they're not.& IT (money) IS "money" in the bank. Then again, no it's not. IT IS backed by securities, etc. Then again, no, just by "faith."& And so&on.

Read away.

Title 31, Subtitle IV, Chapter 51, Subchapter I
Sec. 5103. - Legal tender
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues….

Sec. 5154. - State taxation
A State or a territory or possession of the United States may tax United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) as money on hand or on deposit in the same way and at the same rate that the State, territory, or possession taxes other forms of money.

Title 12, Chapter 3, Subchapter XII
Sec. 411. - Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank

Title 31, Subtitle III, Chapter 31, Subchapter II
Sec. 3124. - Exemption from taxation
(a) Stocks and obligations of the United States Government are exempt from taxation by a State or political subdivision of a State. The exemption applies to each form of taxation that would require the obligation, the interest on the obligation, or both, to be considered in computing a tax....

9.7.2.8.1 (07-15-2002)
Property Subject to Administrative Forfeiture
1. Property may be forfeited administratively if it includes the following:
a. personal property that does not exceed $500,000 in (aggregate) value
b. monetary instruments within the meaning of 31 USC §5312(a)(3), regardless of their value (bank accounts are not "monetary instruments")

Title 31, Subtitle IV, Chapter 53, Subchapter II
Sec. 5312. - Definitions and application
(a) In this subchapter –
(3) ''monetary instruments'' means -
United States coins and currency;

http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html

"…Federal Reserve notes are legal tender currency notes….which then become liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks, and obligations of the United States Government….Congress has specified that a Federal Reserve Bank must hold collateral equal in value to the Federal Reserve notes that the Bank receives. This collateral is chiefly gold certificates and United States securities. This provides backing for the note issue…. Federal Reserve notes represent a first lien on all the assets of the Federal Reserve Banks, and on the collateral specifically held against them….Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything….The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.

Me here: These people cover all their bets, period.

Randy

Ice · #6 05-18-2004, 01:42 PM

It seems to me that one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.... it is all "void for vagueness"!!

&

#7 05-18-2004, 02:18 PM

WOW... I can certainly use the following law with my UCC-1 package to the FTB, because it has an Exihibit which states that FRNS are obligations of the United States.

Title 31, Subtitle III, Chapter 31, Subchapter II
Sec. 3124. - Exemption from taxation
(a) Stocks and obligations of the United States Government are exempt from taxation by a State or political subdivision of a State. The exemption applies to each form of taxation that would require the obligation, the interest on the obligation, or both, to be considered in computing a tax....

What the UCC-1 package doesn't include is that those "obligations" (FRNS) are exempt from taxation!

#8 05-18-2004, 02:33 PM

Actually, this is the Exihibit that attaches to my UCC-1 package:

Title 12, Chapter 3, Subchapter XII
Sec. 411. - Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank

Now all I have to do is add this:

Title 31, Subtitle III, Chapter 31, Subchapter II
Sec. 3124. - Exemption from taxation
(a) Stocks and obligations of the United States Government are exempt from taxation by a State or political subdivision of a State. The exemption applies to each form of taxation that would require the obligation, the interest on the obligation, or both, to be considered in computing a tax....

.

Ice · #9 05-18-2004, 05:06 PM

See "More State Taxes" for the letter that I sent to the State which uses those exact codes.& This state has code that states if it isn't taxable by the Constitution or Federal Statute... then you are not liable.

I still have not had a response from the State.

&

#10 05-18-2004, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice

It seems to me that one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.... it is all "void for vagueness"!!&

As always, you're much nicer about this stuff than me.
It's not only vague, it's blatantly self-contradictory.
Conclusion?
The people who wrote these things were either incredibly stoooopid and couldn't remember from one day to the next what they'd written the day before, or
These people are evil cretins who should be tied behind my truck and dragged clear across country! (That's my personal conclusion.)

Hey, Ice, had all day to think about this:

We all have, and use, "currency," which we simply call "money," right?& And that currency is back by nothing except our promise to pay. And we don't really "pay" for anything because you can only discharge a debt when you have nothing of value to offer in exchange. I.E., we're playing real-life, real-time monoploly. Okay, that's fine.

However (and this is what all of us are facing, in varying degrees, and at least figuratively speaking), once you come to really grasp these truths, that we're all "pretending," we're playing a game, and you put everyone on notice that you KNOW it's a game, what's their response?& Put us in a "real" jail for not "paying" imaginary debts with pretend money!

This is f****d up. I just can't think of a civil way to say it. Sorry.

Hey. Maybe they could just send the MIB to my house, armed with "pretend guns" and shoot me. I'll "pretend" to be dead, and then they can just leave me alone, right?

Oh, I gotta quit....

Randy