Letter to Credit Card Company

[FreeFromContract]

Originally Posted by Admin

Shoonra, JRB...well what other alternatives can you offer this gentleman? Besides sucking it up and paying off the debt, do you have an opinion as how to fight predatory lending institutions?

Given the prejudiced comments they typically make in their replies (as they have here) I would be shocked if they offer anything which could be considered an alternative. Both follow in a very consistent pattern of responses.

Mr. Bean provides good information on how the system works, but anything beyond that seems to be biased opinion.

Shoonra offers a plethora of reference material on statutes, law and case cites, but outside and beyond the scope and capacity as a law librarian, I have found the information lacking specific details to back the position taken (especially in the area of case cites).

I have challenged both on these respective issues (I believe I challenged Mr. Bean in the Citizenship thread and Shoonra in the travel thread) and multiple posts were met with either silence or responses that avoided answering the question at hand. I expect the same here.

Mr. Bean, Shoonra, Can you toss aside your prejudices and offer something beyond the "company line"?

.

[Dillon Hunt]

I want to change the original agreement and I want full disclosue. The alleged debt can be paid if necessary.

[mrg]

Originally Posted by Admin

Iamfree, I realize that some may not agree with Shoonra and JRB but we are all here to help each other like you said.

If they question a certain methodology then offering an alternative is only logical, whatever that may be.

I feel that if a person asks a question here, all possible answers should be explored.

We should learn to see all viewpoints of a discussion.

If it weren't for users that share opposing viewpoints like Shoonra and JRB, this would not be a forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfreeru2
Admin,

Do not ask JRB or Shoonra to give any help.

All they will do is tell Dillon to get a shyster, um, I mean an attorn-ey.

I have offered my help with some educational material provided to Dillon via PM and email.

I would hope that others will do the same.

After all we are here to help each other, correct?

At least some of us are.

You know what, Bean and Shoonra are so precious to you guys, that you ought to just let them and Rookard, and Sukerman, and Lawdawg, and all their buddies have the damn forum, and completely piss all over it.

They offer little more than argumentative insubstantial preumptive RHETORIC.

I have pointed out their slithering tactical style of twisting words several times to no avail.

Time passes the threads are buried and they keep harping away, sniping away.

At some point does not "devil's advocate" exposure to the study of their point of view and the rhetorical and manipulative methods for preserving and perpetuating corruption become redundant?

Did not a lot of members have object lessons in that prior to coming here?

And then only to be labled as deadbeat losers.

I am about out of here because of it.

Two moderators say no to ad hominem.

JRB and Shoonra are masters of actual ad hominem, and other deceitful rhetorical "stunts," as are most attorn-ees.

Half truths are offered as truths and unsubstantiated presumptions are stated as factual bases for premises upon which a propaganda piece is fraudulently structured.

They have been here longer than I and are apparently quite beloved and cherished by the management for some reason unknown to me.

I doubt my leaving, or anyone else's leaving on their account will be any great loss.

Life is indeed cheap.

And such as these likely profit from that traffic, and seek to preserve that which they believe is profit.

[FreeFromContract]

Originally Posted by Dillon Hunt

Any comments appreciated.
I am planning to send this letter with my Credit Card payment to Citibank.
The Check will also state in the memo section “ Paid in Full “
I believe somewhere on this fourm I read each new bill received from the CCC is a new Offer.
I will let you all know what happens!

Dillon Hunt
This is the letter below.....

Originally Posted by Dillon Hunt

I want to change the original agreement and I want full disclosue.

Dillon, What Mr. Bean said is true. Most of these companies (the larger the company the higher the probability they) use processing centers and the majority of the people in those places have no clue as to how to handle something that is beyond step A, B, C.

So if you want to amend the agreement, you're going to have to find out what department processes agreements (maybe the same one that handles the application you filled out?) and mail the letter to them. You should also make reference to the existing agreement in the letter you're going to send along the lines of:

This is a supplemental amendment to the existing terms and agreement for account #123-456-7890 between ME and YOU.

From my personal experience of modifying/amending offers I've received from credit card companies, they are in most cases flatly rejected (in a few rare cases counter offers were made, basically asking me to accept the original terms, but I've never followed up because I really didn't want the credit card to begin with - it was more of an experiment).

Based upon their (veiled and generally vague) responses, I can only offer conjecture as to why these are rejected, but I believe it comes down to two issues: 1. They don't want to spend the time to understand all the ramifications of accepting an application which is outside the cookie cutter app. 2. They quickly realize that in the new agreement they lose leverage over you in the area(s) which you're amending.

Finally, if you're a good customer (make payments on time) and make regular purchases (and are prepared to follow through with a threat), state in a cover letter that you're unhappy with the terms and would like to amend them. Indicate if they are unwilling to accept the new terms that you'll be considering closing the account (the threat). Odds are they're going to reject the offer. But hey, give it a shot. Even with failure you gain insight into their world.

[FreeFromContract]

Originally Posted by mrg

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfreeru2
Admin,

You know what, Bean and Shoonra are so precious to you guys, that you ought to just let them and Rookard, and Sukerman, and Lawdawg, and all their buddies have the damn forum, and completely piss all over it.

They offer little more than argumentative insubstantial preumptive RHETORIC.

I have pointed out their slithering tactical style of twisting words several times to no avail.

Time passes the threads are buried and they keep harping away, sniping away.....

mrg, I hear you and have seen much the same. But on the other side we have to look at this as (either BobT or David Merrill put it) examples of the attitude and arrogance you'll encounter in their courts and administrative tribunals.

I look at this as a positive by placing myself in the position of a new visitor to this site. After a few hours of reading the threads, it's clear who's trying to keep the status quo and protect the system and who's trying to bring the truth to light and restore personal liberty. Of course, their arguement is if you try some of these "stunts" expect to pay the price. There are plenty of quotes available from the founders of this country to G.W. Bush on the price of liberty so further comment is really not necessary.

I'll continue to challenge them on posts which they provide vague, biased and misleading responses and let the readers see their responses (or lack of responses) for what they are.

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by Dillon Hunt

I want to change the original agreement and I want full disclosue. The alleged debt can be paid if necessary.

Let's go on the presumption that your letter reaches someone at the CCC who has the authority to do something about it.

I may be mistaken, but it appears that their compliance with some of the conditions you are proposing

To avoid Acceptance of this Offer do not use, store, release and/or disclose any portion of the personal, private and/or confidential information of Dillon Hunt.

...

includes (but is not limited to) the Names, Addresses, Phone Numbers, ... of Dillon Hunt,...

will make it impossible for them to handle your account.

In specific, they will not be able to send you the monthly statements if they can not "use <or> store" your address.

For that reason alone, they will decline to accept your proposal. They will suggest that, if you are not happy with the unamended terms which they wrote, you can stop using the card and pay the balance {if any} according to the existing terms.

It all boils down to contracts. You executed a contract, and accepted the proposed terms, when you signed the CC application. You always have the right to propose an amendment to the terms of any contract, either before or after it is executed. However, the other party has no obligation to accept your amendment.

In the case of CC agreements, in the first one you signed, you agreed that the CCC is permitted to propose amendments to the contract terms and that your sole option is to accept them or stop using the card.

Andy

[freeindeed]

Originally Posted by Judge Roy Bean

Neither of which will be read nor recognized by a human being.

First, payments are processed by third-party service providers who move mountains of mailed-in envelopes every day that are opened and scanned by machines. Anything that isn't a check or a scannable document (bar codes, MICR, etc.) is simply discarded.

The only things that a real person might see are the ones the machine rejects for some reason, but it is highly unlikely that person is trained to do anything but try and get the machine to accept it or enter the payment manually on a computer.

Secondly, the old "paid in full" ploy legally died years ago.

I have to disagree with JRB here. I have had first hand experience with sending this type of correspondence and it has always been forwarded to someone who will respond. These people are not dumb and they are not just opening envelopes and processing payments like little robots.

As far as the "old 'paid in full' ploy" being legally dead is concerned, I would have to disagree again. The CCC use novation tactics all the time and this same tactic is used against the CCC to win. This is just more JRB disinformation to make people think this is "nonsense." It is used all the time by debt collectors to try and get alleged debtors to unwittingly agree to the DC offers which will give them a slam dunk in court. We need to turn the tables and use against them what they use against us.

[iamfreeru2]

Originally Posted by freeindeed

I have to disagree with JRB here. I have had first hand experience with sending this type of correspondence and it has always been forwarded to someone who will respond. These people are not dumb and they are not just opening envelopes and processing payments like little robots.

As far as the "old 'paid in full' ploy" being legally dead is concerned, I would have to disagree again. The CCC use novation tactics all the time and this same tactic is used against the CCC to win. This is just more JRB disinformation to make people think this is "nonsense." It is used all the time by debt collectors to try and get alleged debtors to unwittingly agree to the DC offers which will give them a slam dunk in court. We need to turn the tables and use against them what they use against us.

I am in agreement with freeindeed here. I also stand by my post earlier in this thread. That is the way I see things. There are many newbies that come here and I have seen the innuendo and deceit used by the Quatlooser mentality to scare them into submission. Yes, this is a forum, and I do not mind apposing viewpoints, but when it resorts to unsupported assertions and lying to distort and obfuscate that is where I draw the line. This forum is about freedom and not slavery. Heck, if we want slavery just go over to Quatloos. You can have all you want over there. That is a forum too, but try speaking the truth over there and see what happens.

[charlesa6]

Originally Posted by iamfreeru2

I am in agreement with freeindeed here. I also stand by my post earlier in this thread. That is the way I see things. There are many newbies that come here and I have seen the innuendo and deceit used by the Quatlooser mentality to scare them into submission. Yes, this is a forum, and I do not mind apposing viewpoints, but when it resorts to unsupported assertions and lying to distort and obfuscate that is where I draw the line. This forum is about freedom and not slavery. Heck, if we want slavery just go over to Quatloos. You can have all you want over there. That is a forum too, but try speaking the truth over there and see what happens.

Again, welcome back, your commentary is what a lot of people been missing in this forum, they need support, and back up, and they not getting it. Nowdays people hiding under the skirts, don't want to be busted by BB.
I ask myself a questions: Maybe somebody can answer it for me.
Suijuris Suijuris Suijuris! Hmmmm! What suijuris mean?
What did stand for?
Did the input by the member's goes together with the term Suijuris? Hmmm!
Did the member's follow what the Suijuris stand for? Hmmmm!
In this forum any clue about the Suijuris ideology.
Suijuris Suijuris Suijuris! Hmmmmm!
Why is that?
So mote it be.

[Shoonra]

There is no easy solution to this, certainly not shrugging off bona fide debts.

But you most certainly are entitled to full disclosure. You are entitled to an enumeration of the credit card charges and an explanation of any additional viggorish such as interest or penalties. It may well be that an error has been made - perhaps a fraudulent use of your card (over the phone or internet for example), or a refund or payment that wasn't posted - and you are fully entitled to go over your CC bill with a fine tooth comb.

Assuming you arrive at a final valid billing, you have to discipline yourself. Live frugally. Stop running up CC purchases (you should have already stopped before today!), start paying off the existing bills in installments as quickly as possible. Send a letter to each CC company telling them that this is what you are doing, so they know that you are making a good faith effort to clean up your accounts. Some people even send back their credit cards (cut in pieces), to show that they're changing their ways.

I have elsewhere suggested consulting a good debt counseling service; be careful picking one, there are a lot of fakes out there. But some colleges have their business or law students working in credit clinics and those seem to be trustworthy. The counselor should help you make financial plans, including CC payment schedules, and sometimes a letter from such a counselor will persuade the CC companies to show some patience.

The most important thing is that you change your ways (meaning your spending habits) immediately and let the CC companies know.

(Applying for another CC account after you've already run one account through the roof and are not making a serious attempt to pay off the debt, is a bad idea on many many levels.)

Good luck.