Banks, Collectors, and CRAs Discuss the elimationa of secured and unsecured "debt", as well as tactics for dealing with debt collectors and credit reporting agencies.


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  #1  
Old 04-29-2006, 08:55 PM
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Bank Note Showdown

Alright this thread is continued from HERE

Go For it !
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Old 04-29-2006, 08:58 PM
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From B Rookard

Originally Posted by Glenn
I would go so far as to bet if it was proven to you that you are paying for a debt that is already paid and you keep getting statements of how much you still owe that you would keep paying the bill.


Most people know which bills have been paid off. Most people don't just keep paying their mortgage payment for the fun of it.

Quote:
Well if I sent you a bill every month alleging you owe me money would you pay it and if not why?

Because I don't owe you.

Quote:
If you say because you do not owe me anything then you may wish to look into the bills you do pay and see if you are paying the proper party and when the alleged bill is paid are you going to get the original contract or note back? Or is it a copy?

You don't need a copy of the original contract back. Keep your receipts. Show you paid. If they present a "copy" of the contract, so what? So long as you know that you owed, and so long as you paid and can show you paid ... what do you have to worry about? When you can show you paid, it will be very seldom that you will run into problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
If you are paying on a copy you are not paying the proper party because you are entitled to your original paper you issued back upon discharge of the contract or note.


Bunk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
If you do not receive the original paper back the party who is holding the paper is entitled to payment, and can come after you to pay the bill, contract, or note all over again if they wish to pursue it.


THAT IS UTTER BULL****!

If you can show you paid the other party will NEVER collect again ... they might even be sanctioned for trying (because it would be utterly frivolous to maintain that somehow you can be paid again when the other person has paid once already).

Maybe you try to get paid twice for the same thing ... maybe you argue that you're entitled to be paid again and again ... but most people are not stupid enough to believe that you will succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
Barnum said a sucker is born every minute, and the banking institutions took it to hart.

Glenn



And hopefully nobody falls for your B.S.

You must think people are suckers.
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:00 PM
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Another Highlight: Glenn's response

Originally Posted by HenryBowman
No doubt who I would pick, but I said I would like to know how to replace the trustee.

Henry Franklin



Henry;

I am looking fo a document I wrote to replace the trustee but here is a document you may find helpful wrote by a close frend.

It is wrote for Michigan so do not know where you are so you may have to research and change some to work correctly.

Glenn
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:34 PM
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I hope this will clarify my opinion

weishaupt1776;

My apologies...It was not my intent to create an issue and I hope this will clarify my opinion.

McCay v. CAPITAL RESOURCES COMPANY, LTD. 96-200 S.W.2d 1997
Where appellee apparently never possessed appellants' original note as provided in Ark. Code Ann. 4-3-309(a)(i) (Repl. 1991), but was required, even if it had, to have proven all three factors specified in 4-3-309(a) and did not do so, appellee could not enforce the original note's terms by the use of a copy; even if all three requirements in 4-3-309(a) had been proven, the trial court was still obligated to ensure that appellee provided adequate protection to the appellants from any future claim, and this, too, was not done. First, as previously discussed, we mention the unfairness in these circumstances that, if a duplicate was allowed in place of the original note, the McKays could later be subjected to double liability if the actual holder of the note appeared. Next, we add that the Rules of Evidence are rules of the court involving legal proceedings, while the UCC is composed of statutes of law that established the rights and liabilities of persons. Again, as previously discussed, Capital Resources, as an assignee of the McKays' note, could not sue on the underlying debt the McKays owed to Landmark Savings. For Capital Resources to have prevailed in enforcing the McKays' note, it was required either to produce the original or satisfy the requirements for a lost negotiable instrument under 4-3-309(a) and (b). Because Capital failed to do either, we must reverse and remand.

Mortgage Securities Inc. v. Hartley LORD. No. 4D02-4051. July 23, 2003.
Mortgagee by assignment brought foreclosure action. The Circuit Court, 15th Judicial Circuit, Palm Beach County, Edward Fine and John Wessel, JJ., entered summary judgment for mortgagor. Mortgagee appealed. The District Court of Appeal, Stone, J., held that mortgagee could not maintain cause of action to enforce missing promissory note or foreclose mortgage, in absence of proof that mortgagee or assignor ever had possession of note.

LORRAINE C. TILLMAN v. VIRGINIA SAVAGE SMITH (07/25/85)
The purpose of the section is well expressed by commentator Carl W. Ehrhardt as follows: [21] The drafters of the Code excluded from the general rule of admissibility of duplicates these documents because the possessor of the documents is the owner of the obligation that they represent and the party who may bring a cause of action based on the document. Therefore, the person who possesses the duplicate may not possess the cause of action. For example, if A makes a xerox copy of a promissory note and subsequently negotiates the original to B, under section 90.953(1), A, the transferor, is not able to sue on the xerox copy of the promissory note. [22] Ehrhardt, Florida Evidence § 953.1 (2d ed. 1984). See also Lowery v. State, 402 So.2d 1287 (Fla. 5th DCA 1981). To fall under section 90.953(1), the agreement would have not only to evidence a right to the payment of money, but be "of a type that is transferred by delivery in the ordinary course of business with any necessary endorsement or assignment" (emphasis added).

Mason v. Rubin, 727 So.2d 283, 37 UCC Rep.Serv.2d 1087 (Fla.App. Dist.4 02/10/1999) Establishing a lost negotiable instrument is governed by a different statute, section 673.3091, Florida Statutes (1993). The latter statute contains more stringent requirements than the former, and the trial court correctly concluded that the husband did not satisfy section 673.3091

FIGUEREDOv.BANK ESPIRITO SANTO No. 88-1808.Jan. 31, 1989. FL Third District.
The plaintiff failed to produce for admission into evidence the original copy of a negotiable promissory instrument as is expressly required by section 90.953(1), Florida Statutes (1987). For this reason, the final judgment of foreclosure is vacated with directions for the trial court to receive the original promissory note in evidence

SMS Financial LLc. v. Abco Homes, Inc. No.98-50117 February 18, 1999 (167 F. 3d. 235; 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.) Where the complaining party can not prove the existence of the note, then there is no note. To recover on a promissory note, the plaintiff must prove: (1) the existence of the note in question; (2) that the party sued signed the note; (3) that the plaintiff is the owner or holder of the note; and (4) that a certain balance is due and owing on the note. Since no one is able to produce the “instrument” there is no competent evidence before the Court that any party is the holder of the alleged note or the true holder in due course. New Jersey common law dictates that the plaintiff prove the existence of the alleged note in question, prove that the party sued signed the alleged note, prove that the plaintiff is the owner and holder of the alleged note, and prove that certain balance is due and owing on any alleged note. Federal Circuit Courts have ruled that the only way to prove the perfection of any security is by actual possession of the security. See Matter of Staff Mortg. & Inv. Corp., 550 F.2d 1228 (9th Cir 1977), “Under the Uniform Commercial Code, the only notice sufficient to inform all interested parties that a security interest in instruments has been perfected is actual possession by the secured party, his agent or bailee.” Bankruptcy Courts have followed the Uniform Commercial Code. In Re Investors & Lenders, Ltd. 165 B.R. 389 (Bkrtcy.D.N.J.1994), Unequivocally the Court’s rule is that in order to prove the “instrument”, possession is mandatory. In addition to the note, another element of proof is necessary – an accounting that is signed and dated by the person responsible for the account. Claim of damages, to be admissible as evidence, must incorporate records such as a general ledger and accounting of an alleged unpaid promissory note, the person responsible for preparing and maintaining the account general ledger must provide a complete accounting which must be sworn to and dated by the person who maintained the ledger. See Pacific Concrete F.C.U. V. Kauanoe, 62 Haw. 334, 614 P.2d 936 (1980), GE Capital Hawaii, Inc. v. Yonenaka 25 P.3d 807, 96 Hawaii 32, (Hawaii App 2001), Fooks v. Norwich Housing Authority 28 Conn. L. Rptr. 371, (Conn. Super.2000), and Town of Brookfield v. Candlewood Shores Estates, Inc. 513 A.2d 1218, 201 Conn.1 (1986).

See § 90.953, West's Fla. Stat. Annot. (1979) (Sponsor's Note); C. Ehrhardt, Florida Evidence § 953.1, at 605 & n.5; Lowery v. State, 402 So.2d 1287, 1288-89 (Fla. 5th DCA 1981). 90.953(1), Florida Statutes, is misplaced. The purpose of that subsection is to require production of the original where there is an action on a negotiable instrument. In such instances, the original instrument must be brought forward both to demonstrate the right to payment and to preclude the possibility that the instrument has already been negotiated.

[11] State Street sought to establish the promissory note and mortgage under section 71.011, Florida Statutes. State Street alleged that Hartley executed the note and mortgage and that, after multiple assignments, the documents were assigned to State Street by EMC Mortgage Corporation. Although State Street alleged in its pleading that the original documents were received by it, the record established that State Street never had possession of the original note and, further, that its assignor, EMC, never had possession of the note and, thus, was not able to transfer the original note to State Street. [12] The trial court correctly concluded that as State Street never had actual or constructive possession of the promissory note, State Street could not, as a matter of law, maintain a cause of action to enforce the note or foreclose the mortgage. The right to enforce the lost instrument was not properly assigned where neither State Street nor its predecessor in interest possessed the note and did not otherwise satisfy the requirements of section 673.3091, Florida Statutes, at the time of the assignment. See Slizyk v. Smilack, 825 So. 2d 428, 430 (Fla. 4th DCA 2002). In Mason v. Rubin, 727 So. 2d 283 (Fla. 4th DCA 1999), the appellant brought a foreclosure action on a second mortgage, the trial court denied the foreclosure, and this court affirmed on the basis that the appellant had failed to establish the lost note under section 673.3091. Likewise, here, where State Street failed to comply with section 673.3091, the trial court correctly entered summary judgment denying its foreclosure claim. *fn1 In contrast, here, the undisputed evidence was that EMC, the assignor, never had possession of the notes and, thus, could not enforce the note under section 673.3091 governing lost notes. Because EMC could not enforce the lost note under section 673.3091, it had no power of enforcement which it could assign to State Street.

RAYMOND E. SHORES AND MARCENE G. SHORES v. FIRST FLORIDA RESOURCE CORPORATION (10/11/72) Appellants are entitled to assurance that they will not later be sued by a holder of these instruments…. If there are parties having any claim to these instruments they should be brought into the action and the matter determined. The instruments should then be reestablished, recorded and an appropriate judgment entered.
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:56 PM
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Your opinion is noted.
Yes indeed, bankruptcy court have followed the UCC. Bankruptcy court recognizes the secured party in line in priority claims. First in line get paid, and the rest followed upon proof of your claims in "B-10" form under penalty of perjury with $500.000 dollars fine for fraudulence claim or lost the claim without proof.
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:06 PM
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no entitlement no enforcement power

It is not just within the bankruptcy court that the rule applies.. to collect for anything you have to have a verifiable interest within the note, debt, contract, or what ever you wish to label it no entitlement no enforcement power.

Glenn
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:45 PM
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Right again, but it seems to me that the bankruptcy courts quickly more responding to verifiable interest, than the lower court if you will.
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:45 AM
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Henry Bowman posted -

Quote:
OK, Palani, fair enough.

Now, explain how without prejudice applies to signing a note or deed of trust.

You go ahead, I'll read your post when you put it up.

Henry Franklin

Read away, Henry.

Actually I agree with everything free_martha has posted so far but lets take a look at portion of your post copied above -

Quote:
without prejudice applies to signing

The phrase does apply to the signature and how it is used or viewed. The phrase simply says you intend it to be viewed with respect to common law rather than UCC. A naked signature without this phrase simply fulfills the requirement of the statute of fraud that a writing must exist. From there it is wide open to interpretation under the UCC. The signature is the contract without regard to the principles of common law. UCC has no such principles.

I'll give you a for instance, a woman has been ****ering to sell a cabin. After considering a proposal by one party she writes a letter outlining what they have talked about regarding terms. She concludes by making a written statement in the letter that she has decided not to sell at this time and she mails the letter. The attorney for the other party takes the material that she has so graciously provided along with her signature and uses it to force her to sell. This actually happened. It would not have happened if she had not written the letter or had protected her signature.

If there is a signature involved and the scent of money in the air the UCC will apply unless you tell anyone likely to view your signature that it doesn't.

Undoubtably UGALawdog (aka lawmutt - he ain't never caught a rabbit) is correct that Article 2 of the UCC doesn't apply to real estate. You are supposed to interpret this to mean that the UCC doesn't apply to THIS SITUATION. Think again! He is just practicing the world of commerce as he was taught it in the land of oz.

The use of the term 'without prejudice' doesn't mean that you are going to renege or that you are crooked. If you sign a document by all means plan on living up to your end of the bargain. If all of the common law elements are present to make a contract then your signature makes it a contract.

The spin doctors know up front that they have a problem with the substance issue on the common law side. Doesn't this knowledge that they have and failed to divulge constitute fraud? If the deal goes south for whatever reason they are going to try to grab whatever substance is involved (house, property, real estate). They provided no substance up front, just some debt instruments, yet want to be viewed as the injured party. I don't believe their case would stand up under common law and that is the position I would prefer to be in.

If I were to use your phrase "Right of presentment not waived" I don't believe I would be able to make the above arguments.
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Old 04-30-2006, 06:35 AM
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I did re-open Rlynn's original thread on the basis of her original question:

"Any suggestions for me, such as document to give title company if they should interfer with my signing of documents??? "



so if this debate jogs any ideas, you can respond to her question on her original thread again
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