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Old 12-09-2007, 07:13 PM
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Natural Person

Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765-1769)
Sir William Blackstone
, Book 1, Chapter 1
Quote:
Natural persons are such as the god of nature formed us.

Last edited by Ownmaster : 12-10-2007 at 06:09 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2007, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownmaster
Natural persons are such as the god of nature formed us.


Are you formed by the god of nature?

When, where, and how did you discover this?

What, factually, is the "god of nature?"

If there is a "natural person," would there also be an "unnatural person?"

Are persons the same as men or women? If so, why not use the words "man" or "woman?"

Also, Code-eee, what is a state, and how did you get one?
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  #3  
Old 12-10-2007, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extramural

Also, Code-eee, what is a state, and how did you get one?


Click on Ownedmaster's bio and on the right side you will find a mouseclick for the Ignore List. I may be wrong but I feel his misconstructions about common law and state law are bait to learn how to improve his particular traffic process so there might actually be some success and I doubt that there will actually be any wins with it.

Now he is just spending a few moments to scatter the bait shotgun style and it is just a waste of bandwidth. But not for me - no more of his nonsense - Ignore List.



Regards,

David Merrill.
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It is worth noting that the fealty to the Pope, which you cited for its explicit mention of the Templar abbey in Dover, is the legal basis for the invalidation of the Magna Carta after it was sealed at Runnymede.
During discussion about the Treaty of 1213 and the Magna Charta (1215).

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/medieval/magframe.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/john1a.html
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  #4  
Old 12-10-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extramural
Quote:
...why not use the words "man" or "woman?"

Indeed, precisely, why not


(hce)

he can explain

tip

Last edited by mrg : 12-11-2007 at 02:12 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2007, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownmaster
Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765-1769)
Sir William Blackstone
, Book 1, Chapter 1

Quote:
Natural persons are such as the god of nature formed us.

Quote:
Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England
Book the First - Chapter the First : Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals


Book the First: Of the Rights of Persons

RIGHTS are however liable to another fubdivifion ; being either, firft, thofe which concern, and are annexed to the perfons of men, and are then called jura perfonarum or the rights of perfons ; or they are, fecondly, fuch as a man may acquire over external objects, or things unconnected with his perfon, which are ftiled jura rerum or the rights of things.

There is made a clear distinction between "a man" and "his person," and men, and "the persons of men," IS THERE NOT?

If there were no distinction, why would not Blackstone have said:

Quote:
or they are, fecondly, fuch [Rights] as a man may acquire over external objects, or things unconnected with A MAN, which are ftiled jura rerum or the rights of things.

Instead Blackstone draws a clear distinction between "a man" and "his person," DOES HE NOT?

Is "his person" not, obviously, the POSSESSION of "a man?"

How, precisely could it be otherwise?

"His" is a third person singular possessive pronoun, [signifying "a man"] and attaching (POSSESSING) a noun, "person?"

[The prefix pro means for. A pronoun is a substitute for a noun.]

If "his person" is THE POSSESSION of "a man," would "his person" be of the class of "external objects," or would "his person" be of the class of "things unconnected with "his perfon?"

And as what, as well as, where, when, and how, precisely, does Blackstone substantively define the term "person" with specific particularity?




Why does Blackstone state:

Quote:
RIGHTS...which...are annexed to the perfons of men,

rather than

Quote:
Rights...which...are annexed to MEN?

Why are those "Rights" "...then called jura perfonarum or the rights of perfons,

rather than Rights of MEN?



Quote:
PERSONS alfo are divided by the law into either natural perfons, or artificial.

Natural perfons are fuch as the God of nature formed us: artificial are fuch as created and devifed by human laws for the purpofes of fociety and government; which are called corporations or bodies politic.

How, precisely, and with specific particularity, can there be definition of "natural person," and "artificial person," WITHOUT FIRST their being a solid, indisputable definition of "PERSON?"

Did Blackstone define "person" as "man" or did he DISTINGUISH BETWEEN "person" and "man?"

Quote:
RIGHTS are however liable to another fubdivifion;

being either, firft, thofe which concern, and are annexed to

the perfons

of men,


and are then called jura perfonarum or the rights of perfons;

or they are, fecondly, fuch as

a man

may acquire over external objects, or things unconnected with

his perfon,

which are ftiled jura rerum or the rights of things.


Quote:
PERSONS alfo are divided by the law into either natural perfons, or artificial.

Natural perfons are fuch as the God of nature formed us:

artificial are fuch as created and devifed by human laws for the purpofes of fociety and government;

which are called corporations or bodies politic.

Where , precisely, is the specific, particular term MAN mentioned?

What, precisely, is "the law" which divides "persons?"

When, where, and how are the precise operational mechanics, and ultimate source of this "law" by which "persons" are "divided," identified, described, illustrated, verified, validated, etc.?

Where, when, and how, precisely, is it specifically, and with particularity stated that the source by which "PERSONS alfo are divided by the law into either natural perfons, or artificial," is, in fact, "the God of nature?"

Quote:
Natural perfons

are fuch as

the God of nature

formed us

Quote:
Natural perfons

are fuch

as the God

of nature formed us

Quote:
Natural perfons

are

fuch as

the God of nature formed

us

Quote:
Natural perfons

are fuch [PERSONS] as

the God

of nature

formed

us [PERSONS]

That is so vague, speculative, arguable, and subject to interpretation.

Howso is the precise DISTINCTION BETWEEN "a man," and "his person?"

Why does NOT Blackstone distinguish between "the rights of persons," and the rights of MEN?

Is Blackstone speaking to the Rights of Persons, or to the Rights of MEN?

The Title of the Book is:

Quote:
OF THE RIGHTS OF PERSONS

viz:


Where precisely, and with specific particularity is addressed the RIGHTS OF MAN?

Are you MAN or are you PERSON?

Given subscription to the distinctions Blackstone (and it was YOU, yourself, who quoted Blackstone in Points and Authorities), makes between "a man" and HIS person, how, precisely, and with specific particularity can you BE both?

What then is the precise distinction between "a man" and "his person" and between "a man" and a "natural person" which being of a "person" is distinct, per Blackstone, to "a man?"

Are YOU a MAN or are YOU a PERSON?

Does "a man" possess "his person" whether it be "his" "natural" "person," or whether it be "his" "artificial," or whether it be possession of "external objects, or things unconnected with his perfon?"

Certainly "his person" cannot possess "a man," can it?

If so, can "his person" BE that man?

Does a "natural person" encompass all the facets of a "person" as Blackstone distinguishes?

If not, how could there BE a "natural" "person?"
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouvier's Law Dictionary
MEMBER. This word has various significations: 1. The limits of the body use- ful in self-defence. Membrum est pars corporis habens destinatum operationem in corpore. Co. Litt. 126 a. See Limbs.

2. - 2. An individual who belongs to a firm, partnership, company or corporation. Vide Corporation; Partnership.

3. - 3. One who belongs to a legislative body, or other branch of the government; as, a member of the house of representatives; a member of the court.

How does one become a member of or belong to such a firm, partnership, company or corporation. Vide Corporation; Partnership or belong to a legislative body, or other branch of the government; as, a member of the house of representatives; a member of the court.
Maybe by sophestry, that you claim that this natural person is you, or the same as a man or woman.

Does some natural person have to join such a group?
Do they need to knowing,willingly after being fully informed of all consequences voluntarily join?
Can it be under threat,duress, coercion or intimidation,
be forced to join?

Blackstone's commentaries are speaking of lawful entities/in law

I am simply a man, not a lawful entity.
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:25 PM
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The Law of Persons has it's origin in Roman Civil Law and applies in PRIVATE LAW.

"person" has different capacities within private law

"natural person" used in statutes is a capacity of someone who is within the body politic who legislated the statute applied as "private law" applicable to such "persons".
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Old 12-15-2007, 04:21 AM
farmer_giles_of_ham farmer_giles_of_ham is offline
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I read a recent edition of Black's where the following was listed, more or less-

entity: an organization with a legal personality separate from it's owner, like a business or governmental unit.

individual: an indivisible entity


so, put the two together and that's...

"an individual is an indivisible organization with a legal personality separate from it's owner, like a business or governmental unit".

But...a natural person may simply be the guaranteed right to a legal personality belonging to any human being.

un treaty on human rights says so, and so do many constitutions around the world. Perhaps that right could be waived and immunity gained from laws that regulate 'persons'. And the states of the world are generally barred from processing Men and Women- different jurisdiction, since these states are secular.


However, "individuals" are just the sort of 'governmental unit' that are subjected to so many legal requirements, individual tax return, etc. The corporate us citizen or resident is an individual, apparently.

Last edited by farmer_giles_of_ham : 12-15-2007 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:34 AM
ThomPaine ThomPaine is offline
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Great points Farmer, especially when you swap words within definitions.

I believe that a sovereign man has the unlimited right to contract. If he chooses to become a person or use his persona for something that is his choice.

"He who receives the benefit, shall also bear the burden"
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:41 AM
farmer_giles_of_ham farmer_giles_of_ham is offline
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Are you saying that the natural person is the physical flesh and bone body; or are you saying that it is a recognized legal status?

There are treaties, constitutions, etc that mention the "right to a legal personality". Do you think that right could be waived, leaving someone without a suitable (sue-able) personality?

Or maybe it is like my shadow- there is no losing it.

Last edited by farmer_giles_of_ham : 12-17-2007 at 02:46 AM.
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