What gives courts their authority? What stops you from starting your own?

[Jerseee]

If the Constitution is dead or even alive, why would anyone take an oath of office based on this dead or alive doctrine?

If the Constitution is dead or even alive, why would anyone take an oath of office based on this dead or alive doctrine?
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How many people read and understand the Constitution they are taking an Oath to? Do you think they read it and understand it before they take the oath?

And how can anyone uphold the Constitution when the only money we have is unconstitutional, "criminal money", floating around?

[suijuris]

I know one guy who took the oath and understands it full well. How many are needed?

One side says the document is of no effect to anyone while the other side does not agree; apparently the document is very much alive to them.

My personal belief is that any oath is binding upon those that enter it, regardless of their intention or comprehension. Some of us wish to continue holding people to their oaths. For those who disagree, I pose the question: What alternative action do you propose?

I know one guy who took the oath and understands it full well. How many are needed?

What are his job duties? Does he make decisions regarding the rights of others? For example, traffic tickets, parking tickets, taxes? If so, does he know that the United States Constitution, Article 1 § 10, requires ‘no state shall make or demand anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts’? Would he accept payment in gold or silver from me on a debt he may claim I owe? If not, then he does not understand "fully well" the constitution. If his job does not involve making decisions regarding the rights of others, then his oath is basically useless.

How many state and federal agencies uphold Article 1 Sec. 10?


"Even though the United States Constitution, Article 1 § 10, requires ‘no state shall make or demand anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts’, your agency, acting for the private corporation known as the STATE OF CALIFORNIA, contractually assesses alleged obligations in terms of Federal Reserve Notes. We expect you do this because such notes are regularly privately exchanged by many of your patrons, however, such a practice can hardly limit any person from tendering payment in actual United States money, as we now do. In fact, such a limitation is forbidden by law.
The fact remains that even though FRNs are regularly barterously exchanged between parties and even though FRNs jurisdictionally state on their face “THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE”, the fact remains that FRNs are not money, they are notes subject to the law of notes. Though a note can, by agreement, be barterously exchanged for its hypothecated value, it cannot “pay” a debt. To pay a debt, one must use real value such as is inherent to real gold or silver money. The difficulty in using FRNs is that they are inherently inflationary private foreign corporate notes, hypothetically based upon the bankrupt nature of the private foreign corporation known as the United States Government and their continuing contractual debt to the International Monetary Fund and the Federal Reserve System, as such FRNs cannot be redeemed for value and their exchange is made only under the private privilege of bankruptcy protection, which cannot be compelled upon any party not directly controlled under the jurisdiction of the bankruptcy’s administrative Law Judge (which I am not). Creating such a relation with you would violate our religious requirements.

Wherefore, full payment is tendered with United States Fifty Dollar gold coins.
The Fifty Dollar face value is obviously not the same as $50 in FRNs. Though the United States and over 37 other separate nations use a monetary denomination standard called “dollar”, they are all foreign to each other and are made up of different weights, measures, components and values, none of which are equal to the private foreign corporate FRN’s hypothecated ‘dollar’ value. For WI-DOR to demand that for purposes of payments such gold coins face value was equivalent to that same number of FRNs would constitute a criminal act and violate at least the Par value Modification Act, the Foreign Currency Exchange Act and the Constitution’s limitation, “No State shall…deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” You cannot lawfully assess obligations in terms of the foreign FRNs and then attempt to count real United States money as if it is the same denomination as the inflated FRN to the jeopardy of the payee any more than you can lawfully set your demand for payment in terms of pesos and then count dollars tendered as if they were pesos. The standard of payment must remain the same; i.e. when you set the amount of payment in terms of FRNs you must calculate a United States gold coin payment at the FRN exchange rate set by Congress.

Sincerely Yours,

[suijuris]

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

And how can anyone uphold the Constitution when the only money we have is unconstitutional, "criminal money", floating around?

Well, for starters, some debt free Treasury Notes could be printed as various presidents have done in the past. But would that change the status of the constitution?

The debt notes printed by the Federal Reserve have no more bearing on the status of the Constitution than does the color of the sky. The banking power in this country has gone back and forth between Congress and a central bank many times prior to the FED and always serves as an indication of people's education, awareness, and dedication to the future and welfare of their country and family.

And how can the FED (or anything else for that matter) be considered unconstitutional or criminal by somebody who considers the constitution to be dead and of no effect?

If the constitution is of no effect, what makes the FED debt notes illegal or unconstitutional?

If the document is of no effect, why apply it's definition of money to the present day?

Making an argument that the Constitution is dead without providing an alternative method to protect our rights is an open invitation to anarchy from the both the alleged authorities and their alleged subjects.

Sui Juris wrote: "Well, for starters, some debt free Treasury Notes could be printed as various presidents have done in the past. But would that change the status of the constitution?"

The constitution does give Congress the right to coin money and regulate the value thereof. A debt free currency issued by our government sure beats a debt based currency issued by a foreign corporation.


"The debt notes printed by the Federal Reserve have no more bearing on the status of the Constitution than does the color of the sky."

Oh really? Please elaborate. Please explain how our debt based currency has no more bearing on the status of the Constitution than does the color of the sky. This will be interesting.


"And how can the FED (or anything else for that matter) be considered unconstitutional or criminal by somebody who considers the constitution to be dead and of no effect?

It's easy to consider the FED criminal if you understand how the federal reserve system works. For example, did you know that the income tax and the Federal Reserve Act are two sides of the same coin? Neither can function without the other.


"The Federal Reserve Act avowedly was passed to create an "elastic currency", that is, a currency which could be expanded to infinitum, the enthronement of the historic "rubber check" as a national monetary policy. It was necessary to impose rigid controls from the top on the circulation of these notes, or scrip; this control inevitably became a Marxist function. The income tax amendment was the enactment"' into American law of the principal plank of the Communist Manifesto, demanding a "progressive income tax", which had been issued by Karl Marx in 1848."

At this time I do not know if debt free currency would free us from the income tax, but I do know without federal reserve notes, there would be no vehicle registration, traffic tickets, income tax, state taxes, etc. Federal reserve notes must be siphoned out of the system this way. And they have the blessings from congress to do whatever it takes to take their counterfeit currency back.


"If the constitution is of no effect, what makes the FED debt notes illegal or unconstitutional?"

See above. The Federal Reserve Act and the income tax are two sides of the same coin.

"Making an argument that the Constitution is dead without providing an alternative method to protect our rights is an open invitation to anarchy from the both the alleged authorities and their alleged subjects.
Today 01:11 AM "

There are alternatives to the federal reserve. They were talked about in the video "The Money Masters". Money Masters was taped over 10 years ago. Nothing has changed since then. It's gotten worse, in fact.

I have solutions, but have no power to do anything. Ron Paul is our best chance for change, but even he has not been able to get through to congress.

[suijuris]

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

What are his job duties? Does he make decisions regarding the rights of others? For example, traffic tickets, parking tickets, taxes? If so, does he know that the United States Constitution, Article 1 § 10, requires ‘no state shall make or demand anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts’? Would he accept payment in gold or silver from me on a debt he may claim I owe? If not, then he does not understand "fully well" the constitution. If his job does not involve making decisions regarding the rights of others, then his oath is basically useless.

His job duties have nothing to do with USC, Article 1 § 10 and he is not employed by a state.

The Constitution is very much alive to him, and ALL of us make daily decisions regarding the rights of others.

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

How many state and federal agencies uphold Article 1 Sec. 10?

I doubt that any do. But I fail to see how that proves anything regarding the status of the Constitution.

If I understand correctly, your logic is that since unconstitutional acts are rampant, the Constitution must no longer be in effect.

What if we applied that logic to something else, for example a law purporting to make murder illegal. Once murder is frequently committed, does it mean the law is of no effect? Maybe it means those responsible for enforcing the law are just not effective, or that the law itself cannot be effective in its current state, or that there will always be lawbreakers.

Or what if one trespasses on your property several times, do you loose your rights to that property? Would you let a burglar trick you into believing that their repeated trespass gives them the right to haul off with your rare coin collection?

I am sorry, but I need evidence of such a claim. I need to see proof that someone with the authority to do so revoked the Constitution. And who has such authority?

To me, the Constitution is more than a piece of paper and even if it were burned and the ashes were spread in the wind, it would still be very much alive in the hearts and minds of many an American.

[suijuris]

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

Oh really? Please elaborate. Please explain how our debt based currency has no more bearing on the status of the Constitution than does the color of the sky. This will be interesting.

The point I was trying to make is that I have not seen any evidence that the creation of the FED changed the status of the Constitution.

If that is your position, which it seems to be, then can you pinpoint the exact date the Constituion was ended?

Is it your position that the creation of the FED rendered the Constitution null and void?

I have seen the Money Masters and abhor the international banking cartel and understand the history behind the FED and the income tax. If you read my other posts in this forum and understand the purpose of this site you will know my position on these issues, and if you would read my posts on the topic at hand you would realize that my position of the FED and income taxation has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

You were attempting to make a point about the status of the Constitution, as was I, and now you are moving to other topics.

Let us stay on point please, unless you can show with some clarity that the other topics are somehow related and prove your position.

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

"And how can the FED (or anything else for that matter) be considered unconstitutional or criminal by somebody who considers the constitution to be dead and of no effect?

It's easy to consider the FED criminal if you understand how the federal reserve system works. For example, did you know that the income tax and the Federal Reserve Act are two sides of the same coin? Neither can function without the other.

You stated that the money is illegal and unconstitutional. I did not attempt to rebut this or take any position. My question was one of simple logic and once again directed at the issue of your method of proving the status of the Consitution.

As your post was certianly not responsive to my question, I ask again: If the Consitution is dead and of no effect, how can it possibly be used to determine if something in the present is illegal or unconstitutional? How can anything be considered unconstitutional by somebone who claims the Consitution is dead?

It is like measuring the weight of an object with a unit of measurement that you claim not to exist.

"I know there is no such thing as a pound, but that fish I just caught weighed at least 10 pounds!"

The question calls for logic, not for your position or an explanation of the FED or income tax. Most of us here can agree on those issues and they do not need traversed here.

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

At this time I do not know if debt free currency would free us from the income tax, but I do know without federal reserve notes, there would be no vehicle registration, traffic tickets, income tax, state taxes, etc. Federal reserve notes must be siphoned out of the system this way. And they have the blessings from congress to do whatever it takes to take their counterfeit currency back.

I wish you could forget about the FED and income taxation for just a minute and focus on the topic... please?

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

"If the constitution is of no effect, what makes the FED debt notes illegal or unconstitutional?"

See above. The Federal Reserve Act and the income tax are two sides of the same coin.

No doubt they are all part of the same beast. Now, please clue me in as to how their creation changed the status of the Constitution.

What was the day, month, and year when the Constitution became null and void? What was the exact cause? Who had the authority to do such an act?

Originally Posted by Etyrnal

"Making an argument that the Constitution is dead without providing an alternative method to protect our rights is an open invitation to anarchy from the both the alleged authorities and their alleged subjects."

There are alternatives to the federal reserve. They were talked about in the video "The Money Masters". Money Masters was taped over 10 years ago. Nothing has changed since then. It's gotten worse, in fact.

I have solutions, but have no power to do anything. Ron Paul is our best chance for change, but even he has not been able to get through to congress.

I saw Money Masters, and recommend it to all for a great history of the international banking cartel.

But I question the logic in the belief that a member of Congress can offer any hope when any and all authority derives from the Consitution, which you claim to be null and void, dead, etc.

By the way, before you assume that my position on Ron Paul is negative, I should clarify that I think he is a great Congressman and American patriot and based on what I know of him to date, he has my support.

"His job duties have nothing to do with USC, Article 1 § 10 and he is not employed by a state."

If he took an oath to uphold the Constitution then he took an oath to uphold the entire Constitution, including Article 1 sec. 10. L ike I said, if his job doesn't involve upholding the rights of others, then what is the oath for?

"The Constitution is very much alive to him, and ALL of us make daily decisions regarding the rights of others."

Yeah, the Constitution is very much alive to him, until he needs its protections. Only then will he find out how "alive" his Constitution really is.


"How many state and federal agencies uphold Article 1 Sec. 10?

"I doubt that any do. But I fail to see how that (Article 1 Sec. 10) proves anything regarding the status of the Constitution."

I know you fail to see how that proves anything regarding the status of the Constitution. That explains why you said:

"The debt notes printed by the Federal Reserve have no more bearing on the status of the Constitution than does the color of the sky."

Please explain how our debt based currency has no more bearing on the status of the Constitution than does the color of the sky. This will be interesting.

If I understand correctly, your logic is that since unconstitutional acts are rampant, the Constitution must no longer be in effect.

Yes, that about sums up my logic. If we have no "say so" as to what money we have, what makes you think you have any "say so" about anything the Constitution says?

"What if we applied that logic to something else, for example a law purporting to make murder illegal. Once murder is frequently committed, does it mean the law is of no effect?"

Bad example. My logic is based on truth, fact, experience and knowledge. Your example, on fantasy-- your logic is illogical. First, there are no laws making "murder" illegal. So you need to find another example to compare my logic, to. Logic which is based on fact, truth, experience and knowledge.

"To me, the Constitution is more than a piece of paper and even if it were burned and the ashes were spread in the wind, it would still be very much alive in the hearts and minds of many an American."

Yes, as a great memory.

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[suijuris]

So exactly when and where did the Constitution become a mere memory?