Forward thinking

Jerseee · #1 11-04-2003, 09:05 PM

All,

Ice and myself have been engaging in some very stimulating dialogue concerning citizenship and I feel we are very close to coming up with some documentation that may thwart BB attempts to controvert this issue.

Ice and myself have met at common ground on some major points of US citizenship versus US National and how to get BB to recognize our status once and for all without controversy.&

the approach I suggested to Ice&is simple, tactical, and economical.& Ice, revealed that I may have stumbled onto something worth discussing the logistics of and of course asked for my rationale and in addition he would like this to be in an open forum so we may get some feedback that may help in this struggle.& So here is the idea that I exposed to Ice:

Excerpt from the State dept website:

"Very few persons fall within this category since, as defined by the INA, all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals but only a relatively small number of persons acquire U.S. nationality without becoming U.S. citizens. Thus, Section 101(a)(22) INA states that all U.S. citizens are also nationals of the U.S. However, Section 308 INA confers U.S. nationality but not U.S. citizenship, on persons born in or having ties with "an outlying possession of the United States." The outlying possessions are defined in Section 101(A)(29) INA as American Samoa and Swains Island. No other statutes define any other territories nor any of the states as outlying possessions. Those enumerated in section 308 INA as eligible for this status, in addition to those mentioned above, are those individuals born abroad to two American non-citizen national parents, or those born abroad to one alien parent and one non-citizen national parent. Also, there is a residency requirement placed upon the parents of the child prior to birth in order to transmit U.S. nationality."

"As the Department has received few requests, there is no justification for the creation of a non-citizen national certificate. Designing a separate document that includes anti-fraud mechanisms was seen as an inefficient expenditure of resources. Therefore, the Department determined that those who would be eligible to apply for such a certificate may apply for a United States passport that would delineate and certify their status as a national but not a citizen of the United States."

"Any person who becomes a citizen of the United States solely by virtue of the provisions in Section 301 [applying to those born in or residing in the Northern Mariana Islands] may within six months after the effective date of that Section or within six months after reaching the age of 18 years, whichever date is later, become a national but not a citizen of the United States by making a declaration under oath before any court established by the Constitution or laws of the United States or any other court of record in the Commonwealth in the form as follows " I _____ being duly sworn, hereby declare my intention to be a national but not a citizen of the United States."

As you can read there is a process that should be done in order to be recognized as a US National.& Along with the passport application, an oath must be taken as well.&So with all of that said, here is the line up docs that I thought of:

1. a certified filed copy of DS-11&

2. The oath (which should be published in a paper) and get a certificate of publication

3. copy of your birth certificate

4. 5-6 original copies of the oath on certificate paper and all of them notarized

Then file your sworn oaths and certificate of publication with the county recorder.& thoughts?

Ice · #2 11-05-2003, 01:11 AM

My own thinking is that we may not need to do anything due to the fact that they must PROVE their assumptions in any contest they initiate.

But, something interesting that Jerseee pointed out is the following:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/uscode/8usc/www/t8-12-III-II-1452.html& Check out paragraph (b) (2)

If you notice, it states that you must be "in the U.S." at the time you request the certificate of non-citizen U.S. National.& Which "U.S." are you supposed to be in?& This may mean that, as a visitor or temporary resident "within" the U.S. you may be able to "certify" your citizenship status as an American National, a citizen of one of the 50 union states and not a citizen of the "U.S." ... almost like having a "passport".

Any and all input is welcome.

&

Ice · #3 11-05-2003, 10:04 AM

I would like to add one more note.

As Jerseee says, we can make our own "certificate".& The truth is that there is no government that American Nationals can rely on for any such documents.& Any true government under the Constitution would not "require" such documentation, therefore, there would not be any made available.& And, since we have all right to produce such documentation (don't we have the right to produce negotiable instruments?), why not produce our own identification which demonstrates our citizenship status?

Your thoughts are welcome.

&

Jerseee · #4 11-05-2003, 03:16 PM

Ice,

Food for thought:

the U.S. and its outlying possessions are not just islands and Washington,&DC, they are also courthouses and other US government buildings/land, where the 50 states has alloted unclaimed land to the US so that it may function as a sovereign government for the benefit of "its" citizens.

Therefore, (it is my belief) that this process can be done at any courthouse.& In fact, isn't a notary public&another public court recognized by the U.S. and the Constitution?

thoughts on this....

Jerseee · #5 11-05-2003, 05:50 PM

Ice and all,

Here is a draft of the Certificate I am still tweaking:
In accordance with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America, Article I (Bill of Rights); as well as the New Jersey State Constitution Article I (Bill of Rights); Section 101 (a) (22), (a) (29), (a) (36); Section 308, and Section 341, of the Immigration Nationality Act; USC 8, 1452 (b)(2)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o

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I _____ being duly sworn, hereby declare my intention to be a national but not a citizen of the United States.<o

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<H1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" align=center>NOTARY PUBLIC’S JURAT<o

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I am not related to&JERSEEE by blood, marriage, adoption, or employment, but serve as a “disinterested third party” and further, that I am in no way connected to, or involved in or with, the person and/or matter at issue in this instant action.<o

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BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority, a Notary Public, on this 6th day of& November 2003, JERSEEE did appear and was identified by birth certificate and who, upon first being duly sworn and/or affirmed, deposes and says that the aforegoing asseveration is true to the best of his knowledge and belief.<o

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<H2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in">DECLARANT’S CERTIFICATION AND VERIFICATION<o

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The Undersigned JERSEEE©, i.e. Declarant, does herewith swear, declare, and affirm that Declarant executes this Certificate of Non-Citizen Nationality with sincere intent, that Declarant can competently state the matters set forth herein, that the contents are true, correct, complete, and certain, not misleading, and the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in accordance with Declarant's best firsthand knowledge and understanding. <o

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Further Declarant saith naught. WITNESS my hand and official seal.<o

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Dated: November 6, 2003<o

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&&JERSEEE©&Notary/Witness
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>Of course it is not yet complete but I could use some input--since I do not want to operate in a vaccuum.& Also, this will be place on certificate paper with borders.& And the format/layout will not be in this fashion as it appears.</o

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>Thoughts....</o

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#6 03-12-2004, 09:02 PM

jerseee...

Did you mean Constitution "of" the US, or "for"?

I read one of your posts in which you so rightly pointed out the distinction in the preamble.

And yes, y'all are onto something really good here. It actually "covers all bets." Leaves one in the position we all favor, i.e., leaving them with the burden of proof, while simultaneously establishes offical and uncontroverted "testimony" of the facts.

Well done.

Randy

Jerseee · #7 03-12-2004, 09:56 PM

randy,

I have been kind of busy and haven't had a real chance to tweak that doc the way I want it.

But, I am glad the you brought it back up for all to see again. It has been a while.

I want to make that doc as simple, uncontroverted, sound in its base, factual, ascertive, and brief as possible.

Glad you like it.

nralien · #8 03-12-2004, 10:31 PM

This will sound like a very uneducated question but I have to ask.

Exactly what is a U.S. National passport suppose to do for you?

I was under the impression that as long as you have a name and a mailing location (and/or SSN) the devils minions are going to attempt to extort money or performance.& I feel like I missed the first day of school.

nralien

Jerseee · #9 03-12-2004, 10:36 PM

nralien,

it establishes a lot of things being a National but, from my point of view, it establishes jursidiction and your proof that you are not a US CITIZEN.

So you can prove your claim but, the burden of proof is never on you. This way you stay in honor and only you can give up jurisdiction.

nralien · #10 03-12-2004, 10:50 PM

Jerseee

Do you know how title 26 identifies U.S. National?& Or does title 26 not identify U.S. Nationals at all?

nralien