14th Amendment Clause 2

[weishaupt1776]

The following is a debate on a forum regarding the language and intent mainly of Clause 2 of the 14th Amendment

This has been posted before

Amendment XIV

• Section 1.All persons born or naturalized in the United States . . .are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

So the presumption gets stuck on you from the git go because the writing of Section 1 allegedly naturalizes all people in the several United States
at birth according to their opinion.
A new political (and governmental) system is created by this written instrument called The Fourteenth Amendment Section 1 and 2 are inseparable keep section 1 in mind for the following:

• 
  
  Amendment XIV
  Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State . . .

All people in the several states are included for representation.

• . . .'"But when the right to vote"

"But when" indicates a change from sentence 1 directly above. Towards the end of sentence 2 you will see that the the representation is going to be reduced.

• ". . . at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State."

This is LOADED.
At the end states "such male citizens".
Who are "such male citizens" ?
The male inhabitants that are citizens of the United States engaged in the participation in rebellion, or other crime.
So what is it really saying thus far ?
The right to vote is denied EXCEPT FOR participation in rebellion, or other crime.
Now, what do those inhabitants do?

• such male citizens will bear to the whole number of citizens"

Bear means:

• to effect in a harmful or adverse way and to exert force

The whole number of citizens includes all persons as mentioned in sentence 1; or inhabitants as noted in sentence 2.


Notice that right to vote is going to be abridged or denied.
When is the right abridged or denied?
Abridged or denied WITH WHAT EXCEPTION?
Participation in rebellion, and other crimes.
All people in any given state are
represented if they participate in rebellion or other crimes; and the
citizens that do not participate are not represented (however are still
deemed US citizens).


How can one be represented if he can not vote?
Do the board of directors of GM represent me?
Can I vote in their corporation and be told what to do by it?
Can a person that gets convicted of a felony vote in
today's system?
The formula takes care of this, does it not?

The words "But when" mean next to nothing as they are just changing
what was established in sentence 1.
The relevant key words are "SUCH CITIZENS"
and what they do and the outcome of their actions.
Moreover, why would this be put into a constitution to take care of people that participated in the so-called Civil War... They have all been dead for over one hundred years.

SIMPLE PUT: THIS IS A COMPLEX FORMULA TO ENFRANCHISE US CITIZENS AND DISENFRANCHISE STATE CITIZENS AND CREATE THE PRESUMPTION THAT YOU ARE A US CITIZEN.

Now read Section 1-2 again:
U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment

Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

• 
  Thirteenth Amendment - Slavery And Involuntary Servitude
  
  Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Okay, back to the 14th Amendment sec 2 with all of the garbage taken out:

• " . . . the right to vote at any election . . . is denied . . . to all male inhabitants . . . except for participation in rebellion, or other crime"

So, to have the right to vote is a crime, therefore if you have the right to vote as a U.S. Citizen, then you are "legally" considered to be a slave involuntarily indentured because you are participating in rebellion against you true dejure governmental system.

Congratulations - You're an enemy, belligerent, insurgent, denizen to the dejure governmental system.

OH- and involuntarily enslaved to boot cuz you are being re-presented

[weishaupt1776]

Here is Vivus's reply

Originally Posted by Weis

"... address just the syntax only of the 14th Amendment and the
analysis of it in between(.) Do this without going to your precious
annotated statutes and saying, well there;s (sic) no case law for
that here. " Address how looney this is…""

Originally Posted by Vivus

Glad to oblige, & in Emphasis for clarification

Originally Posted by Weis

Amendment XIV
Section 1.All persons born or naturalized in the United
States . . .

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Whoa, Significant Subject Matter DELETED with the mere use of [...]
Looney Ineptitude?
Or Blatant Interlucation necessary to Propagate a Lie?)
(Permit us to `Repatriate' to the Constitution those Significant
words: and SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION THEREOF ) are citizens of the
United States and of the State wherein they reside."

Originally Posted by Weis

"So the presumption

Originally Posted by Vivus

(OPERATIVE WORD being "presumption")

Originally Posted by Weis

"So the presumptiongets stuck on you from the git (sic) go because the writing of Section 1 allegedly

Originally Posted by Vivus

(OPERATIVE WORD being "allegedly")

[quote=Weis]"So the presumptiongets stuck on you from the git (sic) go because the writing of Section 1 allegedly naturalizes all people in the several United States at birth according to their

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Folks PROMOTING the Seminar)

Originally Posted by Weis

opinion."

Originally Posted by Weis

"A new political (and governmental) system is created by this
written instrument called The Fourteenth Amendment..."

Originally Posted by Vivus

WHOA! Looney Assumption, or Insidious Interpolation of Propaganda to encourage attending a Seminar profiting its unscrupulous Promoters?

Originally Posted by Weis

Amendment XIV
"Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several
States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole
number of persons in each State . ." ".All people in the several
states are included for representation."

Originally Posted by Vivus

Uh Specifically INCLUDING the recently Emancipated Slaves WHOSE RIGHTS the 14th Amendment was Guaranteeing had better be RESPECTED by the Defeated Confederate States IF They Knew what was Good for Them, regardless if the Former Slaves had Yet to Establish State
Citizenship via Residency [i.e. You are "FREE"? "Right! Free to get
off my Plantation/Property before I Can SHOOT Your N***** A** For
TRESPASSING!] )

Originally Posted by Weis

" . . .'"But when the right to vote" "But when" indicates a change from sentence 1 directly above. Towards the end of sentence 2 you
will see that the the representation is going to be reduced."

Originally Posted by Vivus

("But When" Serves as a Warning should there be ANY deviation from previously stated 'terms')

[quote=Weis]". . . at any election for the choice of electors for President
and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in
Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Former
Confederate)

Originally Posted by Weis

State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is
denied to any

Originally Posted by Vivus

(EVEN ONLY ONE)
of the (Emancipated/Black)

Originally Posted by Weis

male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States,

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Not Yet Domiciled in the Several
States)

Originally Posted by Weis

or in any way abridged, except for participation in
rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation

Originally Posted by Vivus

(IN Congress of ANY Culprit State/s)

Originally Posted by Weis

therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Emancipated/Black)

Originally Posted by Weis

male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State."

Originally Posted by Vivus

(i.e. IF Any Former Confederate/Prejudiced State ATTEMPTS to PREVENT even Just One Emancipated/Black Male being 21 years of age the RIGHT to VOTE then whatever Seats/Representation acquired by WHITE ONLY VOTES would thereby be PENALIZED and REDUCED by the Percentage of Total Eligible Voters made up by Black Male Inhabitants of the State
21 years old/older. e.g. If "Such Black Male Citizens" Constituted
Twenty Five Percent 25% of the State's/States' Voter Pool to Deny
EVEN One Black Male the RIGHT to VOTE would COST the STATE a 25%
REDUCTION PENALTY of Seats/Representation IN Congress as
PUNISHMENT)

Originally Posted by Weis

"At the end states "such male citizens".

Originally Posted by Vivus

(SURE JUST SNIP/CUT/EDIT/CENSOR the TRUTH until One can ASK...)

Originally Posted by Vivus

(SEE ABOVE!)

Originally Posted by Weis

"The male inhabitants that are citizens of the United States engaged in the participation in rebellion, or other crime."

Originally Posted by Vivus

(THAT IS NOT what the 14th Amendment SAYS in ANY Legitimate Copy of the U.S. Constitution!)

Originally Posted by Weis

"So what is it really saying thus far ?"
"The right to vote is denied EXCEPT FOR participation in
rebellion, or other crime."

Originally Posted by Vivus

(FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! NOW HE WANTS US TO BELIEVE the 14th Amendment is SAYING "The right to vote is DENIED EXCEPT FOR Participation in REBELLION, or Other CRIME." Come On!)

Originally Posted by Weis

"Now, what do those inhabitants do?"
"such male citizens will bear to the whole number of citizens"
"Bear means:

Originally Posted by Vivus

(At this Moment, SUFFER or otherwise PUT UP WITH)

Originally Posted by Weis

to effect in a harmful or adverse way and to exert (A SINISTER) force (upon) The whole number of citizens includes all persons
as mentioned in sentence1; or inhabitants as noted in sentence 2."
"Notice that right to vote is going to be abridged or denied."

Originally Posted by Vivus

(RATHER, Notice The Truth in the 14th Amendment as it CLEARLY STATES the Consequences should the Right to Vote be abridged or denied)

Originally Posted by Weis

"When is the right abridged or denied?"

Originally Posted by Vivus

(SEE ABOVE)

Originally Posted by Weis

"Abridged or denied WITH WHAT EXCEPTION?"
"Participation in rebellion, and other crimes."

Originally Posted by Vivus

That is NOT What he States just moments ago @:"The right to vote is denied EXCEPT FOR participation in rebellion, or other crime."

Originally Posted by Weis

"All people in any given state are represented if they
participate in rebellion or other crimes; and the citizens that do
not participate are not represented (however are still deemed US
citizens)."

Originally Posted by Vivus

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! From Whose Constitution are YOU reading FROM!

Originally Posted by Weis

"How can one be represented if he can not vote?"

Originally Posted by Vivus

(PRECISELY!)

Originally Posted by Weis

"The formula takes care of this, does it not?"

Originally Posted by Vivus

(ONLY When One Clearly Comprehends HOW!)

Originally Posted by Weis

"The words "But when" mean next to nothing

Originally Posted by Vivus

(ONLY AFTER You Get a Hold of Them and Pervert their CONTEXT) as they are just changing what was established in sentence 1."
(At Least in the Uninformed Opinions of Weis and the Promoters of
the Seminar!)

Originally Posted by Weis

The relevant key words are "SUCH CITIZENS"

Originally Posted by Vivus

(BLATANT MISUSE/ABUSE OF QUOTATION MARKS " ")
(NOWHERE in the 14th Amendment do those words Appear Adjacent to Each
Other and he did not Correctly Indicate as: "SUCH...CITIZENS"
allowing Others to Investigate the Missing "male" and the CONTEXT
e.g. 'Black Male 21 years or older')

Originally Posted by Weis

"Moreover, why would this be put into a constitution to take
care of people that participated in the so-called Civil War... They
have all been dead for over one hundred years.

[weishaupt1776]

Vivus response continued

Originally Posted by Vivus

For Crying Out Loud! The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was proposed by the Congress on June 13, 1866. It was declared, in a
certificate by the Secretary of State dated July 28, 1868, to have
been ratified.

Originally Posted by Weis

"SIMPLE PUT: THIS IS A COMPLEX FORMULA TO ENFRANCHISE US CITIZENS AND DISENFRANCHISE STATE CITIZENS AND CREATE THE PRESUMPTION THAT YOU ARE A US CITIZEN."

Originally Posted by Vivus

THAT'S FUNNY! I would describe your Allegations & Assertions as: A Blatant albeit Feeble Attempt to Confound, Confuse, and DISTORT the Constitution to Mirror your Twisted Logic and to Solicit Paid
Attendance to the Touted & Worthless Seminar Promoted!

Originally Posted by Weis

Now read Section 1-2 again:
U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United
States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,(OOOH) are citizens of
the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the
privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Including Former Slaves, Recent Immigrants and/or Resident
Aliens);

Originally Posted by Weis

nor shall any State deprive any person

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Not Yet even a U.S. Citizen e.g. Foreign Visitors) of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person (Not Yet even a U.S. Citizen)

Originally Posted by Weis

within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Originally Posted by Vivus

(As We Are a Just and Civilized and Hospitable People!)

Originally Posted by Weis

Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole
number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But
when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for
President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in
Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the
members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the

Originally Posted by Vivus

(Black)

Originally Posted by Weis

male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for
participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of
representation therein shall be reduced

Originally Posted by Vivus

(PUNISHMENT)

Originally Posted by Weis

in the proportion which the number of such (Black) male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Thirteenth Amendment - Slavery And Involuntary Servitude
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except
as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly
convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject
to their jurisdiction.

"Okay, back to the 14th Amendment sec 2 with all of the garbage taken out":
" . . . the right to vote at any election . . . is denied

Originally Posted by Vivus

(DENIED?)

Originally Posted by Weis

. . . to all male inhabitants . . . except for

Originally Posted by Vivus

(EXCEPT FOR?)

[quote=Weis]participation in rebellion, or other crime"

Originally Posted by Weis

"So, to have the right to vote is a crime,

Originally Posted by Vivus

(RIGHT TO VOTE IS A CRIME?)

Originally Posted by Weis

therefore if you have the right to vote as a U.S. Citizen, then you are "legally"

Originally Posted by Vivus

(LEGALLY?)

Originally Posted by Weis

considered to be a slave involuntarily indentured because you are participating

Originally Posted by Vivus

(WE ARE?)

in rebellion against you true dejure governmental system."

Originally Posted by Weis

"Congratulations - You're an enemy, belligerent, insurgent, denizen to the dejure governmental system."
"OH- and involuntarily enslaved to boot cuz (sic) you are being re-
presented"

Originally Posted by Vivus

(I PRAY THAT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED ANY SHARP INSTRUMENTS!)

Originally Posted by Vivus

I'M SORRY What PLANET do you CLAIM to be FROM? Seriously??? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
I DO NOT Attack/Or Berate this Afflicted SELF ADMITTED "looney tune"
(identifying himself as Weis) personally, nor Do I Attempt to
Judge him as he ALSO in Created in HIS Image and in doing so One
would thereby be Attacking/Berating/Judging HE whom Created him.
This being said HOWEVER, There is a Moral Duty to NOT let this putrid
propaganda go UNPROFLIGATED! While his Afflictions/Intentions
are Matters of Speculation, The Subject Matter he Chose to
Address/Assert in this Public Forum IS NOT! And While One
is 'Entitled', indeed has a RIGHT to their 'Own' Opinion, That is
not 'License' or in any way precludes one from the Moral Duty NOT to
Publicly Disseminate that which is neither TRUTH/LAW/LOGIC, nor from
the personal responsibilty not to flaunt One's ignorance or lack of
shame by doing SUCH!
Words are Important, especially the ones that Teach Us and make up
our Laws and are NOT meant to be taken lightly, out of CONTEXT,
Censored via Snip Cut & Paste, or FLAT OUT TWISTED and/or IGNORED.
Whatever happened to GOOD Words like those from Thomas
Jefferson: "Those who wish to remain ignorant and free, wish for
that which never was, nor shall ever be" or the words of
Abraham Lincoln: " Better to remain silent and merely thought a fool,
than to speak and remove all doubt"
Should it be Judged that I should be 'Spanked' for Speaking Out
Against Such Blatant Atrocities and thereby 'Banned' from this group
I leave the Same Words of Warning (concerning the Myths/Lies
permitted to be Posted Herein, yet left Un-Rebutted) with which I
came on September 3rd @ Post # 556: Forewarned is Forearmed For
Goodness Sake.

I will be interjecting within the above 2 threads

[greatwolf75]

Okay, I've seen this argument before, but I will still add my input. First it doesn't really even matter anymore who this amendment was supposed to apply to. What matters now is who it applies to, which is everyone. Anyone who has an ounce of law knowledge knows that lawyers will take a certain law and twist it around so that something that the law was supposed to do no longer even touches the problem that it was made for. Well hello there Mr. 14th how are you? Let's just say that it was made only for former slaves, then why would they even bother with all this nonsense, like getting a permission slip to get married and then tell you how you are going to conduct yourself in this marriage. The simple fact of the matter is that it applies to everyone unless they have corrected their status.

[weishaupt1776]

Didn't catch your reply.

Yeah the spew put forth by Vivus hinges on the premise that it meant only emancipated African Slaves, but It doesn't mention slaves in the Amendment or in any legislation

Their was no dual citizenship prior to that, but there is now, coupled with the fact that one must claim to be a U.S. citizen to vote and have a DL.

So does that mean that only emancipated black slaves have the right to vote and drive now?

serious cartoon land

[weishaupt1776]

Due to the complex nature of the deceptive wording
in clause 2, here's another way of looking at it. It does regurgitate some of the previous analysis, but has helped some people understand it.

Here's Clause 2:

Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Okay after "But when", we have "The right to vote". The premise is that this is the right to vote for the defacto Exec, Leg, and Jud officers of a "State". In this case the State is one composed of defacto 14th Amdmt U.S. Citizens not Dejure 10th Amendment State citizens. This is the insurgent State which is a government according to 18 USC 11:

"§ 11. Foreign government defined
Release date: 2005-08-03

The term "foreign government", as used in this title except in sections 112, 878, 970, 1116, and 1201, includes any government, faction, or body of insurgents within a country with which the United States is at peace, irrespective of recognition by
the United States. "

After "the right to vote" we have "is denied"

Denied to who?

"any of the male inhabitants" (Anyone Born in America w/American parents)

"of such state" (State republic/federal colony-area)

Here's the kicker:

Remember in the first sentence it said "whole number of persons EXCLUDING indians" ?

Okay refer back to "any of the male inhabitants"

which type of inhabitants ? (so far it is all except Indians)

It continues "Being 21 years of age AND citizens of the United States"

So tacitly it is saying "All male inhabitants EXCLUDING State Citizens/American Nationals" in the same way.

It is clearly describing WHICH male inhabitants. Tons of cases pre 14th Amdmt showing that there was no such thing as a U.S. Citizen. So obviously there are a
certain part of the whole number of Male inhabitants which are these "21 year old Citizens of the U.S."

Okay so "is denied" is linked to the "right to vote" for the state anf Fed defacto officers.

Then "is denied to ANY of the male inhabitants" then obviates ALL males

But now the criteria narrows with "being 21 years of age AND citizens of the U.S."

So this means that in order to vote, a MALE must be 21 YEARS OLD AND a federal citizen.

So now it is only those federal citizens who are part of the whole number who are thrown back into the equation as being able to vote.

Now the next exception "except for participation in rebellion or crime"

So even if we throw in the "when" in "but when", we still have "But when the right to vote . . . is denied . . . except for partcipation in rebellion or crime"

"the basis of reprepresentation therein shall be reduced"

Reduced how?

"in the proportion which the the number of SUCH male citizens"

Which ones (SUCH)? The male inhabitants 21 and U.S. who ar part of a whole as
below:

"shall bear to the WHOLE NUMBER (state citizens/U.S. Citizens) of male citizens 21 years of age in such State.

This is clear that the political representation is for the part of a whole and not the whole. That part being the males "21 and U.S. citizens". Unless they are a 21
year old male citizen participating in a crime (utilizing the right to vote for defacto officers)

this right to vote is denied and the non- U.S. citizen population, which has been denied that right and who are left over are not to be represented.

"Originally Posted by Vivus
(i.e. IF Any Former Confederate/Prejudiced State ATTEMPTS to PREVENT even Just One Emancipated/Black Male being 21 years of age the RIGHT to VOTE then whatever Seats/Representation acquired by WHITE ONLY VOTES would thereby be PENALIZED and REDUCED by the Percentage of Total Eligible Voters made up by Black Male Inhabitants of the State
21 years old/older. e.g. If "Such Black Male Citizens" Constituted
Twenty Five Percent 25% of the State's/States' Voter Pool to Deny
EVEN One Black Male the RIGHT to VOTE would COST the STATE a 25%
REDUCTION PENALTY of Seats/Representation IN Congress as
PUNISHMENT)"

By the statement and analysis of Vivus, Bush cannot be president because numerous blacks in the state of Florida (the swing state on the electoral college) were denied their right to vote... Hmmmm... guess it is time to break out the tar and feathers.... AGAIN..

Jerry.

[stevenstevensteven]

How the heck is someone new to this expected to grasp all of this. The arguments are not clear, and there appears to be little agreement within the community of this small forum.

[charlesa6]

Originally Posted by stevenstevensteven

How the heck is someone new to this expected to grasp all of this. The arguments are not clear, and there appears to be little agreement within the community of this small forum.

I know! Don't worry, you get use to it

[idknow]

Originally Posted by jerrypitts

"Originally Posted by Vivus
(i.e. IF Any Former Confederate/Prejudiced State ATTEMPTS to PREVENT even Just One Emancipated/Black Male being 21 years of age the RIGHT to VOTE then whatever Seats/Representation acquired by WHITE ONLY VOTES would thereby be PENALIZED and REDUCED by the Percentage of Total Eligible Voters made up by Black Male Inhabitants of the State
21 years old/older. e.g. If "Such Black Male Citizens" Constituted
Twenty Five Percent 25% of the State's/States' Voter Pool to Deny
EVEN One Black Male the RIGHT to VOTE would COST the STATE a 25%
REDUCTION PENALTY of Seats/Representation IN Congress as
PUNISHMENT)"

By the statement and analysis of Vivus, Bush cannot be president because numerous blacks in the state of Florida (the swing state on the electoral college) were denied their right to vote... Hmmmm... guess it is time to break out the tar and feathers.... AGAIN..

Jerry.

has this *ever* been done to a state which was accused of limiting representation?