Question About Violation Of Probation

[Friendsplacect]

Here is the scenario;
A person is on Probation for causing damage to a vehicle as well as "Operating a Motor Vehicle Without Insurance".

I saw the Probation Contract it stated as conditions;
Not to Operate a Motor Vehicle without insurance and to pay restitution in the amount of $500 by Sept 30, 2007. I also remember seeing it stated something like "agrees to not violate any other law of the United States or any State therein"

So the person gets arrested for Breach Of Peace, then is charged with Violation Of Probation. Now my question is since it was not a direct violation of the provisions of the Probation Contract and was simply an accusation from a Peace Officer how is that a violation? Is the accused automatically assumed Guilty if arrested? Wouldnt you be presumed innocent of Breach Of Peace if then convicted of Breach of Peace Guilty of Violation of Probation after the conviction?
I am confised.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

In my personal first hand experience even an arrest, or at least being officially charged, is a "technical violation", distinct from an "actual violation"- but both are arrestable.

If the "breach of" charge is dismissed or aquitted, the technical violation goes away (maybe). In the meantime the accused defendant is in violation of the contract for probation by being formally charged, yes, and therefor subject to arrest, etc.

Even so, there is still legally supposed to be due process for everything- they have to take you in front of a judge and formally charge you with the probation violation. The cops and co. cant just 'violate' you as they like to put it...a freudian slip.

In at least one large American city one will be 'detained', as it were, without formal arrest and charge, under color of 'technical probation violation' without ever being brought in front of a judge! Its incredible but true. There was a case of one captive held for 3 years! in county lock up, without any charges. The computer finally spit him out.

(it's called "county life" - 3 yrs in a glorified police lock-up. )

(the only real automatic limitation there is that 3 years are the maximum time under any circumstance to be continuously held in county jail, which is supposed to be for relatively short stays)

So short of 3 years 'they' will just hold you, schedule and postpone hearings, and never once even identify you judicially for the case, and there will be no process whatsoever, due or otherwise. Many people do about a year in county before someone decides to make room for the next batch.

And all this time there will literally be no judicial order for anything at all, not even a probable cause hearing, no order denying bail, all in violation of the very same written probation law. See, there is more Chaos than Order these days, for now. Ordo ab Chao.

But you can pay the right attorney a grand or so and they will spring you. Or you can pay the wrong attorney 15 grand and makes things much worse and still not get out.

There is more order and liberty in Iran and Cuba than some places in America these days, stay tuned. Adieu!

[Notorial dissent]

Originally Posted by Friendsplacect

Here is the scenario;
A person is on Probation for causing damage to a vehicle as well as "Operating a Motor Vehicle Without Insurance".

I saw the Probation Contract it stated as conditions;
Not to Operate a Motor Vehicle without insurance and to pay restitution in the amount of $500 by Sept 30, 2007. I also remember seeing it stated something like "agrees to not violate any other law of the United States or any State therein"

So the person gets arrested for Breach Of Peace, then is charged with Violation Of Probation. Now my question is since it was not a direct violation of the provisions of the Probation Contract and was simply an accusation from a Peace Officer how is that a violation? Is the accused automatically assumed Guilty if arrested? Wouldnt you be presumed innocent of Breach Of Peace if then convicted of Breach of Peace Guilty of Violation of Probation after the conviction?
I am confised.

The operative phrase is "agrees to not violate any other law of the United States or any State therein". The arrest for Breach of Peace violation is sufficient to violate the probation requirements, and that is all it would take. I would not say the outcome looks good for your friend.

[Friendsplacect]

The operative phrase is "agrees to not violate any other law of the United States or any State therein". The arrest for Breach of Peace violation is sufficient to violate the probation requirements, and that is all it would take. I would not say the outcome looks good for your friend.

So what you are saying is an arrest is enough evidence of a violation of a Law even without conviction. So you are assumed Guilty.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

Its not that anyone is assumed to be guilty, rather that its a seperate crime to just be arrested while on probation. Its called a 'technical violation' (like a technical foul in sports).

If the arrest turns into a conviction then this violation becomes an 'actual violation'.

Meanwhile, being charged with a technical violation, there is cause to arrest, jail and even deny bail, for a while, depending.

String the whole thing out until the probation time ends, if possible. How much probation time is left in this case anyway?

They have to give credit for time served even if you are actually 'on the run', as long as no one makes the judicial determination "defendant not available". A lot of places could never get together a prosecution in time or bother to try to serve the accused. They have to try, in order to fail.

Or get a bunch of continuances, etc. Maybe you can beat the clock for actual violation by letting the probation expire on its own, before a possible conviction to the new charge issues.

If you are reporting to a probation agent, paying fees, or otherwise complying with the conditions, the clock should be running.

However if the defendant is in jail the clock is stopped, for probation.

[Friendsplacect]

The person went to jail for 1 day and got bonded out ($10,000)

The Probation period is up in November. The Probation officer stated "You are no longer on probation" which means to me that they just plan on violating her and put her in jail for the sentence that was hanging on her head. She hasent been arraigned yet she was just put in jail.
The only stipulation on her probation was to pay back the damage she caused with the car ($500) she has to do this by September.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

Probation can only be modified by a judge. It has to be written and signed, after a hearing. Can anyone produce such a document?

Private opinions of probation dept employees don't count. Might as well ask the receptionist what it thinks.

Absent a ruling terminating her probation the clock should be running- ask the public defender office for info on this, knowing what you now know from this forum. Pin them down and make them answer your questions, and be prepared for a runaround- they are just as much the adversary, but might be a source of info for you.

One is either on probation or not. An actual violation has to occur while on probation to be convicted of said violation. An actual violation occurs only upon conviction to a new charge. If she is not on probation, how can she be convicted of an actual violation?

If indeed the 'probation clock' is still running, dollars to donuts says you can delay this through November, and beyond. Maybe, I am not sure, there is no such thing as actually being convicted on a 'technical violation'. It's a temporary status that allows charging but the actual violation awaits the outcome of the new charge.

Work on it and keep faith. Keep posting as new info comes up.

[Friendsplacect]

Thankyou for your advice I appreciate it.
I think I read the statistic that less than 5% of "charges" go to trial I think the issue needs to be delayed as long as possible and then pushed for trial.

[quasimodo]

I did a 3 part show covering the book ‘The Authority of Law’ by; Charles A. Weisman wherein he explains several things. The most poignant of which to this topic being ‘subject matter jurisdiction’ (henceforth SMJ) . SMJ can be raised at any time even after a conviction. The original complaint aside from the claim of damage (no insurance) is a “statute”. STATUTE IS NOT LAW THEREFOR DOES NOT, AND CANNOT HAVE THE FULL FORCE AND EFFECT OF 'LAW'.
‘Essential’ elements necessary for human life to exist are air, food, and water. Remove 1 or more of these elements and the human life no longer exists. “Law” is no different. The 3
“ESSENTIAL” elements of law are, and in this order; 1, the Title. 2, the enacting clause, and 3, the body of the law. The enacting clause as dictated by ALL state constitutions state that a “law” must have the enacting clause “on it’s face” (refer to your respective state constitution for chapter and verse). STATUTES/CODE are void of proper enacting clauses, therefor they are not enforceable as ‘law’, therefor the court(sic) HAS NO JURISDICTION (SMJ). For any judge(sic), magistrate, or ‘law’ enforcement officer to exercise jurisdiction where there is none is (say it with me) TREASON!
Read the book, push the issue, and stand your ground.
BTW, when the judge(sic) dismisses this have him/her dismiss the ‘charges’ not the ‘case’. If the so called judge dismisses the ‘case’ the charges remain. If the ‘charges’ are dismissed the ‘case is as well.

Question;
If person(sic) 1 caused property damage then he, or she has created standing for person(sic) 2 and is now liable for restitution. The question is, who’s property is it?
For example; I built a $4,000 BBQ pit which was stolen from Me (not the State). I reported it as stolen, I found it, and I recovered it. Now, the kid who caused My standing was arrested, and received probation for his offense. Remember that I am the one with standing not the State, I solved the crime not the State, and I recovered My property not the State. Yet I received NO compensation for My loss. Who did receive compensation for My loss? The State did. Hence My question, who’s property is it?
Q

[quasimodo]

OH YEAH, AND ANOTHER THING!!!
If a so called judge imposes a fine on you or anyone else for any reason some questions need to be raised;
(for demonstrative purposes J/=judge, Y/=you)
J /“do you have anything to say before I pass judgment?”
Y/ Yes I do. Do you have an Oath of Office wherein you are sworn to uphold, and protect both federal, and State constitutions?
J/ Yes, I have an Oath.
Y/ You are charging Me with a debt, is that correct?
J/ That is correct.
Y/ Can I discharge this debt with an obligation?
J/ No. You cannot discharge a debt with an obligation.
Y/ Judge you just told Me, and this court(sic) 1 of 2 things, either 1) that I CANNOT use a FRN (federal reserve note) or ANY instrument that represents a FRN to discharge this debt, or 2) that if I do use FRNs that this debt will never be discharged. Which is it?
Remind the so called judge of his/her Oath, site Federal Constitution Article 1 Section 10, and offer silver.
J/ uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. But, uhhhhhhhhhh, mmmm.
(For the simple fact that the so called judge works for the federal reserve bank he cannot take your silver. If he does he is then obligated to demand silver from everyone.)
Y/ I request that in the interest of justice that all charges be dismissed.
Sometimes utter confusion is a beautiful thing.
Q