Certificate of Title v. Muniment of Title

[Friendsplacect]

Okla. 1950 Certificate of title to automobile issued under Motor Vehicle License and Registration Act is not a "muniment of title" which establishes ownership but is merely intended to protect property against theft and to facilitate recovery of stolen automobiles and otherwise aids state in enforcement of its regulation of motor vehicles. 47 Okl.St.Ann. 22 et seq. -- Al's Auto Sales v. Moskowitz, 224 P.2d 588, 203 Okla. 611, 1950 OK 94. -- Autos 20.

That must be why in the beginning of Title 14 "CT MOTOR VEHICLE CODE" it states legislative intent;
"For Identification and revenue".

[ezrhythm]

Originally Posted by netwrkranger

Go for the MSO/MCO if you want absolute ownership.

- netwrkranger

The MCO is not necessary, a Bill of Sale satisfies the presumption of absolute ownership. Just the same as if you bought a car from someone who built it themselves.

To feel more secure onemay;
Have the Bill of Sale state them amount of payment in gold or silver; have it witnessed or notarized; have it recorded at the county seat, have it published in a newspaper for 30 days.

Some say not to remove the VIN so that officers can look it up and see if it is in the system or removed from the "STATE".

The vehicle code states that the VIN is for identification purposes. I would remove the VIN, create my own identifying mark and have that witnessed, notarized and recorded with the county.

Since officers ask for "registration", write up an Affidavit of Registration and have that witnessed and recorded.

AND since;
...indeed it has been farther held, the the admiralty courts cannot hold plea of any contract under seal.
- William Blackstone

One may apply their seal instead of using witnesses and notaries.

[ezrhythm]

Are you referring to that it is illegal to remove the VIN?

If so, that is only when the STATE has a legal interest in the vehicle as when it holds title because the vehicle (VIN) hasn't been removed from their system.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

Another way around this would be to "junk" the vehicle. There is some form or something that registers the cars as destroyed, freeing us from the VIN issue...but better to leave it on, because it actually does show the status of the property...and its not worth the false accusation of a misdemeanour.

[ezrhythm]

Yes, that certainly is a way to take the vehicle out of the "STATE". No particular form required.

How to Junk a Vehicle Check List (California)

Individual vehicle owners who are not licensed as a dismantler can junk and/or dismantle their vehicle, by presenting the vehicle documents to the Department of Motor Vehicles. The requirements are:
The California Certificate of Title. The title must be endorsed for transfer of ownership if the vehicle is not registered in your name.
The license plates on the vehicle.
Fees are due if the vehicle record does not indicate the vehicle is currently registered or has a planned non-operation status.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

interesting. so if the property has been officially junked, the state abandons its claim. And so by default we own everything that's left...flotsam and jetsam rules, more maritime/admiralty. I mean, 'inland marine'.

Same thing goes for transfers to other states. But the cops dont get it...gotta argue and argue so the court takes notice. I just had some local yokels come up on me over a parked foreign car that still had the former plates, marked in THEIR computer clearly as "transit to another state". They were "investigating" infractions relative to circulation or traffic...on a parked car. Lets say they were a bit confused.

Originally Posted by ezrhythm

Since officers ask for "registration", write up an Affidavit of Registration and have that witnessed and recorded.

ah yes, but registration from what state? Foreign, or Domestic? If its foreign then this is defined in the Intl Conv Road Traffic 1949 Geneva- the same info as on the old cert. of title. Make notarized copies before the original is "junked" and that serves the purpose very well I would say. And so does a plate with the title number on it, all for the convenience of the police agencies. the only requirement here is a document that has the model, format and authenticity to establish prima facia evidence as to ownership- surely the old title and the bill of sale do that nicely and thats what counts as registration for foreign vehicles.

But if the self-propelled device is excluded by definition from transportation-

1. because it may not be used in that manner-it isnt registered or liened by the state

2. and it is not actually carrying any "persons or property" (thats a rare accusation i think under normal circumstances)

then the device in question taint a vehicle, neither, in the first place. Just private freehold property.

good idea, to, to make a bill of sale for $21 gold and other valuable consideration...

[netwrkranger]

The 'junked' method makes sense. If there is no more property in the trust, then the trust dissolves. The other way a trust is dissolved is for the beneficiary to release their claim to the property.

Coo!

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

a bit more on foreign registration:

http://www.geocities.com/bkkriders/l.../road1949.html

CHAPTER IV. PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAILERS IN INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC
Article 18

1. In order to be entitled to the benefits of this Convention, a motor vehicle shall be registered by a Contracting State or subdivision thereof in the manner prescribed by its legislation.

2. A registration certificate containing at least the serial number, known as the registration number, the name or the trade mark of the maker of the vehicle, the maker's identification or serial number, the date of first registration and the full name and permanent place of residence of the applicant for the said certificate shall be issued either by the competent authority or by an association duly empowered to do so.

3. This certificate shall be accepted by all Contracting States as prima facie evidence of the information entered thereon.

which just goes to show the whole point of this exercise is to establish this information- acceptable foreign registration means proving this info, which is already well done just by a proper and junked cert of title.

Even if we are not entitled to the benefits of the convention- we do one better and bypass the need, showing the facts without resort to the benefits of mutual recognition: this is just self-recognition by the same state that issued the document in the first place.

[ThomPaine]

State of Illinois Vehicle Title Division
What do I need to apply for a certificate of title for my vehicle? You need a title application, $13 title fee, applicable tax form, and a surrendered title or manufacturer's certificate of origin signed to you by the seller. Other supporting documents may be required by this Office.

surrender: To give up, return, or yield.
The word surrender presupposes the possession or ownership of the thing that is to be returned or given up. It indicates a transfer of title as well as possession, but it does not express or in any way suggest the transaction of a sale and delivery. Instead, it involves yielding or delivering in response to a demand. A surrender may be compelled or it may be voluntary. (West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc.)
==================================

Tennessee Department of Revenue Operations Supervisor Denise Rottero Told Judge Greer how Tennessee's auto registration process works.

The process begins with the "surrender" of the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) by the auto dealer to the Department of Revenue in exchange for
a Certificate of Title. Asked if a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin is proof of ownership, legal title to the automobile, Ms. Rottero said, "Yes"

"Are you telling me that ownership of an automobile must be surrendered to the State before it can be registered?" she was asked.

"Surrender title, yes'" Rottero said.

The certificate of title to your automobile is Not title, it's merely evidence that title exists. Your car's legal TITLE is the MSO, which the dealer surrendered to the State. Ms. Rottero said the MSO is put on microfilm for permanent keeping, the original is destroyed.

After the trial, spectators expressed shock that their personal automobiles were actually owned by the state. "No wonder state law officers stop people
for no reason!" said a housewife. "If your car's got a Tennessee plate, it's theirs, and they can do anything they like to you!" That's the law, but it's voluntary.

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Black's 6th: Equitable Ownership or Equitable Title: The ownership interest of one who has equitable, as contrasted with legal ownership, as in the case of a trust beneficiary.

An equitable owner is one who is recognised in equity as an owner of the property, because real and beneficial use and title belong to him, even though bare legal title is invested in another.

Note: a CERTIFICATE of Title for the 'ownership' of a car, is merely equitable title. A certificate is simply a representation of something, not the item itself. Blacks: a written assurance or official representation, a statement or declaration in writing of some fact, signed by the party certifying it.

In GA, once the MSO is sent to the state, the original is destroyed and a copy is kept on microfilm. At the DMV records office, one can obtain a copy of this MSO for two FRNS.

A declaration of standing for your car, along with a bill of sale and other documents should provide a strong foundation to show equitable AND legal ownership of the item.

How do you prove that you own a bicycle or a lawn mower or a television? :-)

Thom

[netwrkranger]

ThomPaine wrote
How do you prove that you own a bicycle or a lawn mower or a television? :-)

That is a DARN good question. I imagine that there is some paper enclosed with the items that acts, in effect, as a title document.

- netwrkranger