10-11-2003, 07:12 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,511
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Can CONSPIRACY exist if
<FONT face="courier new, courier, mono">If the United States charges someone with conspiracy under 18 U.S.C. 371, here is something interesting I have discovered: In order for this statue to be applicable, the offense must have been commited against the <U>United States</U> or an <U>agency</U> thereof.
I find this rather unlikely, yet every day people are charged with conspiracy this, conspiracy that, even though the crime has NOT been commited against the United States or agency thereof.
Please see the cites below and let me know any thoughts on this...</FONT>
<HR>
Sec. 371. - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the <U>United States</U>, or to defraud the <U>United States</U>, or any <U>agency</U> thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
<P class=catchline>
Sec. 5. - United States defined
The term <U>''United States''</U>, as used in this title in a territorial sense, includes all places and waters, continental or insular, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, except the Canal Zone
<P class=catchline> Sec. 6. - Department and agency defined
The term '' <U>agency</U>'' includes any department, independent establishment, commission, administration, authority, board or bureau of the United States <U> or any corporation in which the United States has a proprietary interest</U>, unless the context shows that such term was intended to be used in a more limited sense.
<P class=catchline>NOTES: The phrase <U> 'corporation in which the United States has a proprietary intrest'</U> is intended to include those governmental corporations in which stock is not actually issued, as well as those in which stock is owned by the United States.
__________________
When a statute, code, or court holding changes tomorrow, does reality change? Does truth change? Does right and wrong change?
If so, there are no absolutes, and the only logical conclusion is that reality, truth, and right and wrong are determined arbitrarily on a daily basis by those with the most power, guns, and money, and the rest of us can choose to run, fight, or be their slaves.
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10-11-2003, 07:12 PM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,511
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Can CONSPIRACY exist if
<FONT face="courier new, courier, mono">If the United States charges someone with conspiracy under 18 U.S.C. 371, here is something interesting I have discovered: In order for this statue to be applicable, the offense must have been commited against the <U>United States</U> or an <U>agency</U> thereof.
I find this rather unlikely, yet every day people are charged with conspiracy this, conspiracy that, even though the crime has NOT been commited against the United States or agency thereof.
Please see the cites below and let me know any thoughts on this...</FONT>
<HR>
Sec. 371. - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the <U>United States</U>, or to defraud the <U>United States</U>, or any <U>agency</U> thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
<P class=catchline>
Sec. 5. - United States defined
The term <U>''United States''</U>, as used in this title in a territorial sense, includes all places and waters, continental or insular, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, except the Canal Zone
<P class=catchline> Sec. 6. - Department and agency defined
The term '' <U>agency</U>'' includes any department, independent establishment, commission, administration, authority, board or bureau of the United States <U> or any corporation in which the United States has a proprietary interest</U>, unless the context shows that such term was intended to be used in a more limited sense.
<P class=catchline>NOTES: The phrase <U> 'corporation in which the United States has a proprietary intrest'</U> is intended to include those governmental corporations in which stock is not actually issued, as well as those in which stock is owned by the United States.
__________________
When a statute, code, or court holding changes tomorrow, does reality change? Does truth change? Does right and wrong change?
If so, there are no absolutes, and the only logical conclusion is that reality, truth, and right and wrong are determined arbitrarily on a daily basis by those with the most power, guns, and money, and the rest of us can choose to run, fight, or be their slaves.
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10-11-2003, 07:17 PM
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Waking Up
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 26
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
Section 5 where United States is defined seems to sum this one up just like in Title 26...
The section is written to draw to you believe United States includes the 50 states... it doesn't state that though.& D.C. resides on the continental&area as does and fort or base.& My understanding is the 50 states are not included in this definition.
Other thoughts are welcomed.
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10-11-2003, 07:17 PM
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Waking Up
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 26
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
Section 5 where United States is defined seems to sum this one up just like in Title 26...
The section is written to draw to you believe United States includes the 50 states... it doesn't state that though.& D.C. resides on the continental&area as does and fort or base.& My understanding is the 50 states are not included in this definition.
Other thoughts are welcomed.
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10-12-2003, 01:03 AM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,837
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
Could it be that when they say "agency" that they are referring to the U.S. CITIZEN?
__________________
"FOR AS HE THINKETH IN HIS HEART, SO IS HE."
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10-12-2003, 01:03 AM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,837
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
Could it be that when they say "agency" that they are referring to the U.S. CITIZEN?
__________________
"FOR AS HE THINKETH IN HIS HEART, SO IS HE."
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10-12-2003, 01:14 AM
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Banned User
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,866
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
AJ,
Absolutely right.& The clue is: "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States".& That narrows it down to what some call the "federal zone".
Jerseee,
Absolutely right.& And by "U.S. citizen" you can infer that they also have a "proprietary interest" in the STRAWMAN.& Is not the all capitals the way in which corporate names are spelled?
Sui Juris,
Isn't it amazing what one will find when working on other projects??
&
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10-12-2003, 01:14 AM
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Banned User
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,866
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
AJ,
Absolutely right.& The clue is: "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States".& That narrows it down to what some call the "federal zone".
Jerseee,
Absolutely right.& And by "U.S. citizen" you can infer that they also have a "proprietary interest" in the STRAWMAN.& Is not the all capitals the way in which corporate names are spelled?
Sui Juris,
Isn't it amazing what one will find when working on other projects??
&
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10-12-2003, 10:10 AM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,511
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Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
<FONT face="courier new, courier, mono">I know the jurisdictional issue can kill most federal charges... but the point I was making is that you can hire a "skilled lawyer" and they never ask the court to prove that the conspiracy was against the US or agency. I wonder why they just don't ask? And yes, then thier is the jurisdictional issue that they never broach.</FONT>
__________________
When a statute, code, or court holding changes tomorrow, does reality change? Does truth change? Does right and wrong change?
If so, there are no absolutes, and the only logical conclusion is that reality, truth, and right and wrong are determined arbitrarily on a daily basis by those with the most power, guns, and money, and the rest of us can choose to run, fight, or be their slaves.
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10-12-2003, 10:10 AM
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Come and Get Some!
|
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,511
|
|
|
Re:Can CONSPIRACY exist if
<FONT face="courier new, courier, mono">I know the jurisdictional issue can kill most federal charges... but the point I was making is that you can hire a "skilled lawyer" and they never ask the court to prove that the conspiracy was against the US or agency. I wonder why they just don't ask? And yes, then thier is the jurisdictional issue that they never broach.</FONT>
__________________
When a statute, code, or court holding changes tomorrow, does reality change? Does truth change? Does right and wrong change?
If so, there are no absolutes, and the only logical conclusion is that reality, truth, and right and wrong are determined arbitrarily on a daily basis by those with the most power, guns, and money, and the rest of us can choose to run, fight, or be their slaves.
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