Social Security Enumeration At Birth

[Livefire]

I would think one would have to approach it from a conscientious objector or a religious grounds argument. Remember the Amish dont participate in the system, clergy of any persuasion can also opt out.

I do tend to think that once the number is issued, its there permanently.

[Shoonra]

Originally Posted by Livefire

I do tend to think that once the number is issued, its there permanently.

Correct, as far as I know. There is a provision in SocSec for changing one's number -- e.g. because of identity theft -- but not for cancelling a number and not replacing it.

Even certain people (such as the Amish) who have "opted out" of the SocSec benefits program and thereby avoid the SocSec payroll deducton, still have whatever SocSec number was already assigned.

In many states the drivers license system requires an SSN for the application (even though, now, the SSN doesn't appear on the license itself) - with no provision for people who don't have SSNs. Similarly for accounts at many banks. One reason is the assumption - far from iron-clad - that illegal aliens will not have SSNs.

[trooper2ls]

Originally Posted by Livefire

Remember the Amish dont participate in the system, clergy of any persuasion can also opt out.

Unfortunatly for the Amish they don't have a choice anymore. Our government has become so invasive that even the "Plain People" cannot avoid contact with the government and still live within it's borders.

A few years back the state of New York raided a number of Amish communities and took their children and held them ransom till they were issued birth certificates and SSN's !!! Yes it has gotten that bad. Another group I know called the 12 tribes had a similar thing happen to them.. the state police with SWAT teams and automatic weapons came and rounded them all up and hauled them away till the parents consented to having state issued birth certificates and ssn numbers for all of them.

Both of these groups birth at home and home school their children. By "law" they are supposed to register their "human capital" but apparently they didn't and the state moved in to "enforce" the "law"

Sad state of affairs the world is today.

http://www.theamherstrecord.com/arch...345143642.html
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20909/amish
http://www.bankersonline.com/complia...mp090803d.html


"The Amish don't pay FICA." This is a common misconception. The Amish, Mennonites and other pre-approved religious groups are only exempt from FICA after the individual files Form 4029 and is approved. The caveat here is that the individual must be a church member, which occurs at Baptism, usually between the ages of 16 and 22. Even then, a 1040 is due to meet the "self employed" requirements of the law if the individual's "self employed" income is over $400. Also, taxes may be due on the income to the state and local taxing agencies.

These people are my neighbors and friends. I trade goods and services with them and hold talks regularly with both groups to educate them about the system and what steps they can take to distance themselves from it. When the world goes to h**l and a handbasket.. these are the people to know. They are the only ones I know who don't need anything that the industrial society has to offer.

..J

[Livefire]

trooper,

There is so much to learn from the Amish and Mennonite peoples! It probably would be a good idea to organize and live in tight knit communities, depending on the land for sustenance.

The only difference I might add, would be to utilize energy technologies such as solar, wind, water, overunity, or any other type available.

[Shoonra]

A relevant US Supreme Court case is Bowen v. Roy (June 11, 1986) 476 US 693. The AFDC and Food Stamp programs required the SSNs for all members of a family as a requisite for providing benefits. The plaintiff parents, members of a Native American religion, objected on the grounds sthat SSNs somehow violated their religious scruples.

The Supreme Court held that there was sufficient (non-religious) justification for these govt programs to require SSNs, and this was a requirement applied to everyone equally, so the "intrusion" on religious rights was minimal. The First Amendment does not empower individuals to dictate the govt's internal workings to accommodate their religious sensibilities.

Not on all fours, but I would think it's on three.

[Livefire]

The moral of Shoonra's story there being, if ya wanna play in the sandbox, Uncle Sam/Big Brotha's got's da right to call da shots!

Remember, those forms have that fine print at the bottom saying that request for SSN info is VOLUNTARY! The next clause will then say that failure to provide the information may result in your request being denied.

You cant claim your sovereign status one moment, then in the next ask the gov't to stick a sugar tit in your mouth to suck on!

[mrg]

I buy all my eggs, and any chicken I eat from either Amish or Mennonite farms.

What Trooper described is abuse of the lowest form.

[trooper2ls]

Originally Posted by Livefire

trooper,

There is so much to learn from the Amish and Mennonite peoples! It probably would be a good idea to organize and live in tight knit communities, depending on the land for sustenance.

The only difference I might add, would be to utilize energy technologies such as solar, wind, water, overunity, or any other type available.

I am teaching the Amish how to reduce their inherited dependance (diesel and Kero .. they don't use electricity)

I am off grid myself. Unlike my neighbors.. I have no issue with using the latest technology... a watt saved is a nega-watt.

I make methanol from wood;
I make bio-diesel from Veg Oil and Animal Fats using a 2 stage esterification process (acid/base)
I generate electricity from wind power (S-Rotor)
I generate electricity from solar (Silicon)
I generate electricity from Bio-D (Lister)
I pump and de-ionized water from a well
I power my trucks and tractors with bio-d
I power my gas autos with methanol (Altered Mixture Ratio to run 100% Meth)
I heat my house with wood and/or bio-d (2 stage gassification wood boiler / Modified Beckett AFG)
I generate natural gas using a bio-mass gassification system (Animal & Lawn Waste combo..methogenic bacteria)
I heat my hot water with solar, bio-d and nat gas.
I make my own soaps using bi-products from the Bio-D chemical process.
I make my own potassium hydroxcide (lye) from wood ash from the boiler and gassification systems.
I grow my own rapeseed (canola) for the oil.
I sell presscake to the Amish for animal feed. (presscake is the leftover from the screw press when making oil)
I grow my own vegetables and herbs
I trade with the Amish for just about all other needs (I don't keep my own farm animals at present... planning to in future)

My house is 188 years old.

These are the main reasons that I get along so well with my neighbors... they can appreciate and respect what I'm doing. Another cool benefit to all this... major savings on direct taxes related to purchase of food, energy and energy products.

..J

[rottweiler]

Do you have any use for this?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...productid=2040

Originally Posted by trooper2ls

I am teaching the Amish how to reduce their inherited dependance (diesel and Kero .. they don't use electricity)

I am off grid myself. Unlike my neighbors.. I have no issue with using the latest technology... a watt saved is a nega-watt.

I make methanol from wood;
I make bio-diesel from Veg Oil and Animal Fats using a 2 stage esterification process (acid/base)
I generate electricity from wind power (S-Rotor)
I generate electricity from solar (Silicon)
I generate electricity from Bio-D (Lister)
I pump and de-ionized water from a well
I power my trucks and tractors with bio-d
I power my gas autos with methanol (Altered Mixture Ratio to run 100% Meth)
I heat my house with wood and/or bio-d (2 stage gassification wood boiler / Modified Beckett AFG)
I generate natural gas using a bio-mass gassification system (Animal & Lawn Waste combo..methogenic bacteria)
I heat my hot water with solar, bio-d and nat gas.
I make my own soaps using bi-products from the Bio-D chemical process.
I make my own potassium hydroxcide (lye) from wood ash from the boiler and gassification systems.
I grow my own rapeseed (canola) for the oil.
I sell presscake to the Amish for animal feed. (presscake is the leftover from the screw press when making oil)
I grow my own vegetables and herbs
I trade with the Amish for just about all other needs (I don't keep my own farm animals at present... planning to in future)

My house is 188 years old.

These are the main reasons that I get along so well with my neighbors... they can appreciate and respect what I'm doing. Another cool benefit to all this... major savings on direct taxes related to purchase of food, energy and energy products.

..J

[trooper2ls]

Originally Posted by rottweiler

Do you have any use for this?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...productid=2040

I actually have about 40 of the 13" square ones. My Dad bought a school supply company and they used to be a repair center for bell & howell and when they cleaned out the warehouse there were a bunch of replacements for old overhead projectors. I've had them for over 15 years because I planned to build a collector "one day" with them..

Holy cow these things are expensive:

FRESNEL LENS 12.9 X 12.9 = $145 /each.

I can say, however, they produce enough heat on a sunny day to melt solder (~600F +)

You have inspired me to pull out that collection and make a tracking box for them. After all sunlight is free and over 1000W / sq meter... so that's over 4.2KW/h of energy produced with my 40 lenses.

I've got an old 5000 Gallon concrete cistern that I was going to insulate and use as a thermal mass system by filling it with broken glass and water... thanks for kicking me in the butt Rot.

..J