Followers of Jesus. Bound to Obey Torah?

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by rottweiler

If the Law was annulled why are the all of the Commandments Great and Lessor repeated in the New Testament? And this pagan idea of comparing the birth of Jesus and the Winter Solstice is false, anti-christ will try anything and everything to dilute the Word because of the vendetta they have with God's Children.

The King James Bible
Matthew, chapter 5

"18": For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

http://www.yrm.org/proving-old-from-new.htm

Funny then that the birth of Jesus is celebrated at the Winter Solstice instead of the Feast of Tabernacles, when according to the Bible it happened. And what about the fertility rites of Oester? The Passover, when Jesus was allegedly crucified, is about chocolate egg-laying bunnies - fertility/orgasm symbols through and through.

Thank you for bringing that up Rottweiller. I enjoy arguing against Christian fanatacism with obvious facts. Even if it makes you call me the anti-christ.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by idknow

David,

I take exception and object to your calling Paul a liar.

No man, let alone Paul can be a liar and do what Paul has done to publish the gospel.

David you need to stop thinking evil of the Man of God.

Specifically Paul told James that his ship sailed to the left of Cyprus when in fact the ship stopped like always in Cyprus and Paul purchased the expensive Roman citizenship papers upon eligibility due to his being born in Celicia.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[idknow]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Specifically Paul told James that his ship sailed to the left of Cyprus when in fact the ship stopped like always in Cyprus and Paul purchased the expensive Roman citizenship papers upon eligibility due to his being born in Celicia.


Regards,

David Merrill.

prove it; quote all relevent verses.
NO lie is present in the word of God.

[juststartingout]

David - of course Christmas and Easter have replaced the true biblical holidays. Of course we should be recognizing the birth and resurrection at the appropriate times. This doesn't mean that Paul was endorsing them. In fact, in Galatians he was telling the Gentiles there to not celebrate in their old Pagan ways any longer! I guess I don't see where, in the "New Testament" he is encouraging celebration of, say, the Winter Solstice.

And by "rebirth myth" are you talking about the Resurrection or are you talking about the need to be "born again."

jdog - Jesus was a Pharisee himself. So he was preaching against himself? He was also preaching against the Scribes. And, Doormonkey, forgive me for speaking for you here... but DM is not saying that righteousness comes from Torah! DM is talking about living out the Torah as a lifestyle - not for our righteousness, but as the way to be holy.

Are we not commanded to be holy? Adonai says to be holy because he is holy! The blood of Jesus gives us our righteousness and makes us right before our Holy Elohim. But it does not make us HOLY. How do we know what Holiness is? We need something to gauge our actions and lives against to determine holiness. We've been given a resource on how to do that and that is the Torah. Torah = Instructions.

Oh, and if Jesus were the perfect emobdiement of following all of Torah and so therefore we don't have to .... please tell me then why woman are still not observing the Niddah in the church - the ritual cleansing after Childbirth and mensturation? Jesus couldn't observe those, thus perfect and fulfill them.

Covenants? The Covenant, through Jesus, was renewed. The adulteress Israel could not be brought back to the marriage covenant (Torah) because they commited adultery with false elohim. In his own Covenant, Adonai says that once a husband and wife divorce they could not remarry if one of them had gone off and married (made covenant) with another. Adonai, being true to his Word, could not break that and take them back. So he needed to perfect and renew it. The shedding of blood was necessary for him to perfect this and so enter Jesus. Ahh, I know I'm missing a lot in this explanation... if need be, someone help me pleeeeze!

for now
JSO

[weishaupt1776]

doormonkey, if i am not mistaken; does this mean I am going to have to go down to the farm and get some calves, hefers, etc . . . and then find some priests of the tribe of Levi to do the sacrifice as a part of my 100% obedience to the Torah?

[doormonkey]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Paul came back through Cyprus where he purchased an expensive Roman citizenship. He lied to James about it. It is evident that Mnason, a Cypriot Jew, supported Paul's lie because James remained unsure whether or not the ship had steered to the left of Cyprus or actually docked like customary.

There were then only the rumors Paul had been teaching that one could be in good standing with God by only buying into his preaching of Virgin Birth and New Birth (worship of the Winter Solstice/Christmas) that he spouted on his recent tour of Asia Minor. Paul immediately went through a ritual cleansing, according to the law, to appease the rumors he thought the Torah insiginificant in pleasing God.

Later, Paul pulled out his Roman citizenship as a get-out-of-floggings card. This was probably compounded by research and investigation that the expensive Roman citizenship papers had indeed been purchased in Cyprus and out of the alms intended for the Ebionite widows, the families left behind by Paul's converts preaching abroad. That is what got James and his associates so angry Paul fled for his life, lowering himself out of windows by rope etc. They were so angry some went on a hunger strike until he was assassinated good and dead.

http://friends-n-family-research.inf...geArticles.zip

So one could easily assume that following the Torah was indeed important to Jesus of Nazareth. However Jesus' followers are more oriented into the pagan doctrines of Paul. Paul, being from Celicia knew since the Road to Demascus incident how easily the pagan culture of Asia Minor would lap up a Rebirth myth like little kittens, milk.

I find it peculiar that you would try stipulating the topic would not get inflammatory?



Regards,

David Merrill.

Okay, this is interesting. I downloaded David's file, but since it's a zip file, and I'm ignorant as to the ways of computers (beyond a few basics) I wasn't able to open it. Any suggestions?

As to the other posts, it's good to have opinions. It would be better if there were proof-texts to back positions. Otherwise, we're just going to get into calling each other "unspiritual", or "anti-christ" or "heretic"...something like that, and then we'll get into serious mud-slinging. (I looked over almost the entire "Religion" Forum before I started this thread. It happens.)

None of us learn anything that way....it just becomes a game of getting one guy to "submit" to the other guys' point of view, which will never happen. I haven't provided any either, I know. It's probably time. I'm going to select one opinion from one of the earlier posts, I think "Idknow" and toss some proof-texts out there to back my position...in this post. I'll keep what I've written here...and add to it later.

Later....

Back...Here's the beginning of a response to post #2, from Idknow:

Originally Posted by idknow

it is mis-said that Jesus came to do away with the law but there is clear scripture that says otherwise.

IN geek terms, the law was optimised from about 613 clauses of law down to two.

1. love god
2. love the one your with! (LOL with apologies to CSNY

roflmao.

Hey Idknow, I have a really important question to ask. What does roflmao mean????

To your comment that the "law was optimised from about 613 clauses of law down to two...I have a response.

But I gotta go get it: So bear with me. I'm a busy person.
******************************************
Wednesday:

Okay, Idknow, here's my response to your comment on Post #2:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStu...as&language=en

My position is this: I don't think we, as followers of Jesus can separate our love of him from our endeavors to obey the entire Torah, all 613 commandments. If by "optimized" you mean that we just have to love each other, however that looks to you, I don't think it's been simplified. From these verses, it seems pretty clear, they're all still applicable to our lives today. I'm not addressing the issue of how we do them, but whether we're required to do them.

My belief system includes Paul's teachings, and those of the entire New Testament.

I haven't yet read David's cited article. But when I do, I reply to his original post too.

I'd like to think of this as "iron sharpening" iron. I'm going to further refine my request for respect. I think the path to that is this: Stating our positions, and then our reasons for those positions. It's tempting to preach or lecture. I've done it too, especially when I'm passionate about something. But I think we'll learn more the other way. I'm interested in learning more than persuading right now. Anybody with me on that?

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Okay, I'm going to the end of the line now.

I am the...

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by idknow

prove it; quote all relevent verses.
NO lie is present in the word of God.

I am not saying there is a lie in the Word of God. I am telling you Paul lied. You know he did as well as his cohort Mnason. But the lie could only be upheld until intelligence from the coast could get to Jerusalem.

David - of course Christmas and Easter have replaced the true biblical holidays. Of course we should be recognizing the birth and resurrection at the appropriate times. This doesn't mean that Paul was endorsing them. In fact, in Galatians he was telling the Gentiles there to not celebrate in their old Pagan ways any longer! I guess I don't see where, in the "New Testament" he is encouraging celebration of, say, the Winter Solstice.

Any further than understanding how the Rebirth myth would spread like a wildfire through Asia Minor (Turkey), I am not saying Paul had any conception of how effective his new Christian weapon against Rome would be.

None of us learn anything that way [mudslinging] ....it just becomes a game of getting one guy to "submit" to the other guys' point of view, which will never happen.

It is not important to acquire submission.

[rottweiler]

Roman Religion

Saturnalia
- 17- 23 December (eat, drink, be merry)
- public and private celebrations and feasts; school holiday
- gift-giving, lighting candles; gambling
- everyone wore a freedman’s hat; no togas
- slaves and masters reversed roles for one day

[rottweiler]

The things you describe are pagan and have nothing to do with Christians. They have to do with phony Christians who have been tricked by the priests of the ancient mysteries to practice unwittingly Baal worship. I do not put one Halloween symbol or one light or evergreen tree or a single bunny in or outside my home in recognition of any of those holidays. Show me in the Holy Scripture where I should celebrate those pagan holidays. You are using a strawman argument. For example, if the Pope, who calls himself Christian but is not, has a inquisition, should Christians be blamed or should the Catholic Church be blamed?

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Funny then that the birth of Jesus is celebrated at the Winter Solstice instead of the Feast of Tabernacles, when according to the Bible it happened. And what about the fertility rites of Oester? The Passover, when Jesus was allegedly crucified, is about chocolate egg-laying bunnies - fertility/orgasm symbols through and through.

Thank you for bringing that up Rottweiller. I enjoy arguing against Christian fanatacism with obvious facts. Even if it makes you call me the anti-christ.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[rottweiler]

No you don't have to you can ask God for forgiveness but don't you practice the Law when you go to court and are found guilty? The guy in the robe is the Levitical Priest. The fine is the burnt offering, the court costs are the heave offering. In the days of old it may be a unblemished lamb of the first year for the sin and two chickens for the judges retirement.

Originally Posted by weishaupt1776

doormonkey, if i am not mistaken; does this mean I am going to have to go down to the farm and get some calves, hefers, etc . . . and then find some priests of the tribe of Levi to do the sacrifice as a part of my 100% obedience to the Torah?