Followers of Jesus. Bound to Obey Torah?

[doormonkey]

If not, why?

If so, why?

I am interested in a good debate here. I'm not interested in a disrespectful debate.

Anyone interested in a potentially interesting debate on this topic, come and argue with me.

Like I said, I would much prefer that we keep things respectful. If you can't manage it, I'll still try and respond respectfully. It it's too disrespectful, I may just pass it by, or ask that the position be re-stated.

Also, I spent a lot of time on another recent debate in this forum. I can't devote hours each day to this thread. So if it seems I've forgotten, or I've given up, probably not. I'm busy with my other life. I'm sure you understand.

My bias: Yes, all followers of Jesus sign up for obedience to the entire Torah when they claim allegiance to him.

Hoping we can sharpen one other's understanding in the discussion...I am the........

[idknow]

Originally Posted by doormonkey

If not, why?

If so, why?

I am interested in a good debate here. I'm not interested in a disrespectful debate.

Anyone interested in a potentially interesting debate on this topic, come and argue with me.

Like I said, I would much prefer that we keep things respectful. If you can't manage it, I'll still try and respond respectfully. It it's too disrespectful, I may just pass it by, or ask that the position be re-stated.

Also, I spent a lot of time on another recent debate in this forum. I can't devote hours each day to this thread. So if it seems I've forgotten, or I've given up, probably not. I'm busy with my other life. I'm sure you understand.

My bias: Yes, all followers of Jesus sign up for obedience to the entire Torah when they claim allegiance to him.

Hoping we can sharpen one other's understanding in the discussion...I am the........

it is mis-said that Jesus came to do away with the law but there is clear scripture that says otherwise.

IN geek terms, the law was optimised from about 613 clauses of law down to two.

1. love god
2. love the one your with! (LOL with apologies to CSNY

roflmao.

[David Merrill]

Paul came back through Cyprus where he purchased an expensive Roman citizenship. He lied to James about it. It is evident that Mnason, a Cypriot Jew, supported Paul's lie because James remained unsure whether or not the ship had steered to the left of Cyprus or actually docked like customary.

There were then only the rumors Paul had been teaching that one could be in good standing with God by only buying into his preaching of Virgin Birth and New Birth (worship of the Winter Solstice/Christmas) that he spouted on his recent tour of Asia Minor. Paul immediately went through a ritual cleansing, according to the law, to appease the rumors he thought the Torah insiginificant in pleasing God.

Later, Paul pulled out his Roman citizenship as a get-out-of-floggings card. This was probably compounded by research and investigation that the expensive Roman citizenship papers had indeed been purchased in Cyprus and out of the alms intended for the Ebionite widows, the families left behind by Paul's converts preaching abroad. That is what got James and his associates so angry Paul fled for his life, lowering himself out of windows by rope etc. They were so angry some went on a hunger strike until he was assassinated good and dead.

http://friends-n-family-research.inf...geArticles.zip

So one could easily assume that following the Torah was indeed important to Jesus of Nazareth. However Jesus' followers are more oriented into the pagan doctrines of Paul. Paul, being from Celicia knew since the Road to Demascus incident how easily the pagan culture of Asia Minor would lap up a Rebirth myth like little kittens, milk.

I find it peculiar that you would try stipulating the topic would not get inflammatory?



Regards,

David Merrill.

[doormonkey]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

I find it peculiar that you would try stipulating the topic would not get inflammatory?

Regards,

David Merrill.

Just a quick response to your statement/question.

One possible reason is, I'm peculiar.


More than likely, it's because I realize questions on religion can quickly become inflammatory. I've observed this to be true, anyway. Maybe you haven't. I think if emotions cloud the issue too much, it prevents clear thinking.

In that introductory post, all I'm doing is requesting respect of one another's views. I can't demand it. This isn't my website. I'm just saying ahead of time, if someone resorts to being disrespectful of my views, then I might not respond. I also said I might overlook it and respond to the post in question anyway. Obviously, I can't do anything about other "posters" on this thread sniping at one another.

David Merrill:So one could easily assume that following the Torah was indeed important to Jesus of Nazareth. However Jesus' followers are more oriented into the pagan doctrines of Paul. Paul, being from Celicia knew since the Road to Demascus incident how easily the pagan culture of Asia Minor would lap up a Rebirth myth like little kittens, milk.

I agree with you that Jesus' teachings are easily understood as being in favor of Torah observance. David, your position on Paul's activities and doctrines has caused me to realize my underlying assumption when posting the original question. My underlying assumption was that a "follower of Jesus" would also consider the rest of the New Testament as binding Scripture. Paul's teachings do seem to throw a "monkey wrench" into the works, don't they?

I'm just guessing, but I think it's safe to say that today most followers of Jesus also accept Paul's teachings as Scripture. Yet there are followers of Jesus who reject Paul.

I am not one of them.

Yet, my position remains the same. Someone who signs on as a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, is obligated to observe the entire Torah. By that I mean learn it, and live it out as a lifestyle.

Now I restate my position more clearly. I would also include Paul's teachings as binding. This might seem a contradiction. But if both the Gospels and Paul's teachings are Scripture to the average follower of Jesus, how is the contradiction resolved?

I'll look over the link you posted sometime in the next few days.

[rottweiler]

If the Law was annulled why are the all of the Commandments Great and Lessor repeated in the New Testament? And this pagan idea of comparing the birth of Jesus and the Winter Solstice is false, anti-christ will try anything and everything to dilute the Word because of the vendetta they have with God's Children.

The King James Bible
Matthew, chapter 5

"18": For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

http://www.yrm.org/proving-old-from-new.htm

[jdogpupil]

You miss the point. How does the Bible present Jesus? Did he commend the religious authorities? By religion I mean any pattern of beliefs and practices. The pharises of His day are an example, as are atheists, Muslims, everyone who adopts such things. When you read the scriptures, does Jesus attest that all these things are reflections of self-righteousness? You will find that it is so. Why does Jesus say that he came to perfect the law, when he quoted the book of Isaiah? Because he is the embodiment of the word of God. Righteousness does not come from anything we can do, obeying the Torah, etc. The Bible says as much.

Certainly you can experience confusion in trying to understand the Bible with a secular perspective, or as philosophy. The question: is God righteous because of what he does, or who he is?

DMonkey, you're honest in conceding your bias. Ruminate on the statements you've made. You have ignored some key elements.

First ignorant mistake: Covenants

[jdogpupil]

David Merrill, you posted some fairly interesting commentary on Paul the Apostle. Virgin Birth? New Birth? As if Paul downplayed the significance of the Hebrew Torah? The man was a pharisee, so that last one doesn't hold water. I encourage you to review Hebrew writings a little more.

[Livefire]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Paul came back through Cyprus where he purchased an expensive Roman citizenship. He lied to James about it. It is evident that Mnason, a Cypriot Jew, supported Paul's lie because James remained unsure whether or not the ship had steered to the left of Cyprus or actually docked like customary.

There were then only the rumors Paul had been teaching that one could be in good standing with God by only buying into his preaching of Virgin Birth and New Birth (worship of the Winter Solstice/Christmas) that he spouted on his recent tour of Asia Minor. Paul immediately went through a ritual cleansing, according to the law, to appease the rumors he thought the Torah insiginificant in pleasing God.

Later, Paul pulled out his Roman citizenship as a get-out-of-floggings card. This was probably compounded by research and investigation that the expensive Roman citizenship papers had indeed been purchased in Cyprus and out of the alms intended for the Ebionite widows, the families left behind by Paul's converts preaching abroad. That is what got James and his associates so angry Paul fled for his life, lowering himself out of windows by rope etc. They were so angry some went on a hunger strike until he was assassinated good and dead.

http://friends-n-family-research.inf...geArticles.zip

So one could easily assume that following the Torah was indeed important to Jesus of Nazareth. However Jesus' followers are more oriented into the pagan doctrines of Paul. Paul, being from Celicia knew since the Road to Demascus incident how easily the pagan culture of Asia Minor would lap up a Rebirth myth like little kittens, milk.

I find it peculiar that you would try stipulating the topic would not get inflammatory?



Regards,

David Merrill.

David,

I dont know where you get your info from, but the NT contradicts you.....

Act 22:24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.
Act 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Act 22:26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.
Act 22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
Act 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

Its pretty clear that Paul was born with that citizenship and decided to claim and take advantage of Roman citizenship in that instance.

[idknow]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Paul came back through Cyprus where he purchased an expensive Roman citizenship. He lied to James about it. It is evident that Mnason, a Cypriot Jew, supported Paul's lie because James remained unsure whether or not the ship had steered to the left of Cyprus or actually docked like customary.

There were then only the rumors Paul had been teaching that one could be in good standing with God by only buying into his preaching of Virgin Birth and New Birth (worship of the Winter Solstice/Christmas) that he spouted on his recent tour of Asia Minor. Paul immediately went through a ritual cleansing, according to the law, to appease the rumors he thought the Torah insiginificant in pleasing God.

Later, Paul pulled out his Roman citizenship as a get-out-of-floggings card. This was probably compounded by research and investigation that the expensive Roman citizenship papers had indeed been purchased in Cyprus and out of the alms intended for the Ebionite widows, the families left behind by Paul's converts preaching abroad. That is what got James and his associates so angry Paul fled for his life, lowering himself out of windows by rope etc. They were so angry some went on a hunger strike until he was assassinated good and dead.

http://friends-n-family-research.inf...geArticles.zip

So one could easily assume that following the Torah was indeed important to Jesus of Nazareth. However Jesus' followers are more oriented into the pagan doctrines of Paul. Paul, being from Celicia knew since the Road to Demascus incident how easily the pagan culture of Asia Minor would lap up a Rebirth myth like little kittens, milk.

I find it peculiar that you would try stipulating the topic would not get inflammatory?



Regards,

David Merrill.

David,

I take exception and object to your calling Paul a liar.

No man, let alone Paul can be a liar and do what Paul has done to publish the gospel.

David you need to stop thinking evil of the Man of God.

[charlesa6]

Amen to that, brothers.