The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Logan]

This thread is in response to redy2fiyts open disagreement to all things "Mormon".

It appears that I alone may be the only LDS member on this forum site, so I will attempt to put facts before angry conjecture.

If anyone has comments or ideas derived from biased sources and has questions about the true ideaology of the fastest member growing reorganized belief system in the world, this would be where to post that preconceived notion and question.

Please post concise questions and cites from reputable sources and I will try my best to answer accordingly.

[redy2fiyt]

Originally Posted by Logan

This thread is in response to redy2fiyts open disagreement to all things "Mormon".

For all those interested, here is the original thread. Our discussion began on page 2:

http://www.suijuris.net/forum/end-da...nd-time-2.html

Additionally, Logan, I am still awaiting the "facts" as well as responses to my cites on the previous thread.

[Logan]

Post your source in scripture and then ask your question, redy2fiyt.

[redy2fiyt]

Originally Posted by Logan

Post your source in scripture and then ask your question, redy2fiyt.

I did, Logan (see post above referencing the previous thread). You just haven't responded - continuously. I also posted numerous other issues on the same topic, all from credible texts and sources that you have not rebutted.

Since you refuse to argue and rebut properly, I'm done with this unless someone else chimes in with questions or comments.

[Logan]

I accept your succession from this debate, redy2fiyt. Your sources are not of authority and your bible has been altered.

2 corinthians:
11: 13-15
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, tranforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (is there any other kind?)

15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works.



Cite precedent in the scripture where an angel appeared as anything but a being of light.
While you are at it, cite where Joseph Smith used the term "angel of light".

Stop using Walter Martin as your source, he has never been a member of the Latter Day Saints and has no credible authority to speak on the subject.

Research your own religions interpretation of the bible in the origin of the Baptist faith under John Smyth in the late 1600's. Remember, there are nearly a dozen separate interpretations of the bible which has been abridged by a man, but only one interpretation of the Book of Mormon and no abridgements(fact).

I will leave you with verses to pondor:
James 1:5-6
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Does anyone else have a pertanent question derived from sources of authority on this subject?

[ezrhythm]

In who's name do you instruct by?

Is faith without works dead?

How do you recognize the Spirit of God?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ezrhythm

In who's name do you instruct by?
Jesus Christ. We do however believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are separate and unique beings. (if that is what you were getting at)

Is faith without works dead?
A true disciple uses faith and works to promote the plan of salvation, using the bible, book of mormon, the doctrine and covenants and the pearl of great price. All these works contain Gods lessons for living life according to his precepts and plan for us to return to Him.

How do you recognize the Spirit of God?
I recognize the spirit of God through the still small voice of his liaison, the holy spirit. (when I am listening )

a subthought: I am in complete awe that pastors of the branches of Catholicism and the many different interpreters of the one Bible, still openly and recklessly sling slander and omissions and sometimes outright falsehoods to their flocks about the followers of Christ which use the Book of Mormon (the record of the early inhabitants of the Americas) and have no authority or knowledge to do so.

I have 32 years of Latter Day Saint church attendance, and I have never heard of some of the things that are being said about what I am actually doing at church (secret meetings, masonic symbols, etc)

We have no paid clergy, no pastor, no guitar.
We have the largest welfare organization in the world.
We have the largest genealogical data base in the world.
We have 80 different member nations and translations of the Works of God.
We have the best overall health standards, period.
We have the lowest instance of disease or divorce.
We have no criminal element in our leadership.
We have no gay ministers or sexually deviant men of influence.

We are the fastest growing reorganized faith in the world. Check the statistics. People of this corrupt and immoral world are flocking to the light and truth of salvation by the truckloads. Check lds.org and research the numbers.

This is a member based religion based on the love of the atonement of Christ and what that sacrifice offers us in this life and the next. Read all works of the lord and you will find much more of the plan than you currently possess.

[redy2fiyt]

Originally Posted by Logan

I accept your succession from this debate, redy2fiyt. Your sources are not of authority and your bible has been altered.

2 corinthians:
11: 13-15
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, tranforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (is there any other kind?)

15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works.



Cite precedent in the scripture where an angel appeared as anything but a being of light.
While you are at it, cite where Joseph Smith used the term "angel of light".

Stop using Walter Martin as your source, he has never been a member of the Latter Day Saints and has no credible authority to speak on the subject.

Research your own religions interpretation of the bible in the origin of the Baptist faith under John Smyth in the late 1600's. Remember, there are nearly a dozen separate interpretations of the bible which has been abridged by a man, but only one interpretation of the Book of Mormon and no abridgements(fact).

I will leave you with verses to pondor:
James 1:5-6
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Does anyone else have a pertanent question derived from sources of authority on this subject?

Logan, I didn't succeed from this debate. You just refuse to rebut.

Originally Posted by Logan

Your sources are not of authority and your bible has been altered.

Prove it. Speaking of altered bibles and scripture, you never responded to my comment about the numerous revisions to the Book of Mormon since its original printing.

Originally Posted by Logan

Stop using Walter Martin as your source, he has never been a member of the Latter Day Saints and has no credible authority to speak on the subject.

Why should I stop using a source that has provided major insight to the Mormon Church's history for years? Prove he has no credible authority. Is your idea of credible authority a member of your church? Sounds biased to me.

Originally Posted by Logan

Research your own religions interpretation of the bible in the origin of the Baptist faith under John Smyth in the late 1600's. Remember, there are nearly a dozen separate interpretations of the bible which has been abridged by a man, but only one interpretation of the Book of Mormon and no abridgements(fact).

Non-Fact. The Book of Mormon has been revised numerous times. Your church will openly admit to the revisions. If you need source and cite, I will give you one. Trust me, it won't take long.


Oh, and Logan, I'm not baptist so stop referring to me as one. I don't refer to you as a Witness, now do I?

Originally Posted by Logan

Cite precedent in the scripture where an angel appeared as anything but a being of light.

Dang, by your own admission, Moroni was a being of light (angel of light maybe)? This is like talking to a brick wall. The evidence is right in front of you.

I'll dig up some cites after work today and post again then.

[redy2fiyt]

Originally Posted by Logan

I have 32 years of Latter Day Saint church attendance, and I have never heard of some of the things that are being said about what I am actually doing at church (secret meetings, masonic symbols, etc)

Logan, have you been to the temple?

Have you gone through the ceremonial washing?

Do you wear the "special garments" with symbols to remind you of your faith? What are those symbols?

Do you deny that the Mormon Church never had the all seeing eye inside any of the temples as a symbol or that the square and compass or anything similar do not appear on your "special garments" or grace the insides of your temples anywhere? You can't get out of this one, Logan. What about the movie, "God Makers"? Interesting how many of the controversial symbols and items shown in this movie were quickly removed once the movie became public.

If you play the "ignorant" card on any of these items, I know you have either, never been to temple OR you simply do not want to expose your church's secrets.

Do you think that I would blindly blurt out accusations? Logan, you know nothing about me. I was almost a Mormon at one time. I have worked for an all Mormon engineering firm and worked closely with a good friend of mine who is Mormon. How do you think I have first hand and second hand knowledge of these "sacred" (secret) items? They certainly do not all come from Walter Martin. I am not a disgruntled ex-mormon, just an observant person who sought out the truth when the time came to make a choice. The Lord showed me plainly that the Mormon faith, is not based on truth. There are too many secrets, Logan. All secrets will be exposed on the day of judgement.

Do you really believe you will be a god? To paraphrase (or perhaps quote - this is from memory) from the Book of Mormon:

"As man is, God once was. As God is, man will become."

And yes, Logan, I have read most of the Book of Mormon and I have researched my own faith, Christianity. Have you taken the time to read any texts on Christianity? Try, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.

Originally Posted by Logan

Remember, there are nearly a dozen separate interpretations of the bible which has been abridged by a man, but only one interpretation of the Book of Mormon and no abridgements(fact)

Logan, are you well versed in Greek and Hebrew? Can you translate the original scriptures? Who are you to say that the bible I am reading is flawed? You think that Joseph Smith's re-interpretation of the bible is accurate. That would be amazing seeing as your Prophet could not read or write in Greek or Hebrew.

[Logan]

Ha ha,

redy2fiyt, you obviously have all the propaganda you need and obviously have achieved enough intelligence and education as you claim to have arrived at your own conclusions and it is also obvious that nothing I say or present as evidence will convince you otherwise. I succeed to your perspective. I am not as educated and well studied as you appear to be.

I can tell you however, that everything you have "found out" about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is complete and utter nonsense. You must be really loyal to your simple belief to be so embolden to chastise mine with all the hate propaganda you can derive from worldly sources.

I have been in the Temple and have never experienced the things you accuse. But I guess I was left out of that "secret" meeting.
I have not ever been to a "ceremonial washing". (?)
I have not ever seen a masonic eye or have any "symbols" on my clothing of modesty.

You are completely misled. Perhaps you have witnessed evidence of the "Reformed Fundamentalist LDS Church".
I do not know, I can only tell you that in all my life, I have never even heard of the filth you are spewing.

I will point out however, that your statement of secrets and convolutions bear little weight or logical sense in an organization that uses more "gospel" sources than any other. I do not care that you haven't the capacity to believe, you must surrender to logic. There were people on the American continent when Columbus arrived. Where did they come from if not from the writers of the Book compiled by Mormon? I also do not ever have to go far in search of a spiritual answer to my question when I have 4 books to read from and a prophet who still speaks to the people of the world with spiritual revelation that brings happiness and joy to this decadent and decaying immoral world.

You sound as though you are upset somehow that your organization has failed to retain the selfless numbers of faithful followers that the LDS have.

You keep spewing hate and images of impurity directed at an organization that has done more good in the world than nearly any other singular group. Did you not respect your friend and the example of righteousness he set? Do you actually know any other LDS members that have spoken of dark and mysterious secret deceptions?

I have known members of my community and my congregation for all my life. I have grown up with the other church children my age. I have achieved "life scout" in our wards scout troop. I have spent many a Saturday on someones rooftop with the members of the Elders Quorum replacing every shingle while the sisters of the ward provided for more food at lunch time than any of us could completely eat. I have brought material goods from the Church's storehouse to the needy and have even served at the storehouse filling orders for shipment.

I have visited the sick and impoverished and participated in blessings to remove their afflictions, to witness many wondrous and miraculous improvements.

I have been a volunteer in many candy sales and bike rides and other money raising events which went to help St. Jude and other charities.

I have been mentor to younger kids in the church and attended camping trips and taught many valuable scouting lessons on survival and overall outdoor enjoyment.

I have spent incredible energy at certain times helping members and non-members alike moving from one place to another. Loading and unloading a U-haul is definitely good exercise that you as a fitness person can certainly appreciate.

I have attended the Temple and been baptized by proxy for many numerous souls that did not have the ability to be baptized while they were alive. Now, the choice to accept that proxy earthly ordinance is still theirs, but did it hurt me to get wet a bunch of times to ensure that someone else may be given a chance to be redeemed in the heavens?

I hope you are beginning to see a pattern here:
I have devoted my life and my 10% tithes to selfless generosity in an effort to serve my fellow man and fulfill my oaths of loyalty at baptism to Gods plan and have accepted Sunday sacrament in renewal of that oath. I have attempted to be a good servant and a good Samaritan to all those I encounter. I have lived life as purely as I can and have kept the word of wisdom and have not abused substances, even coffee or tobacco.

You, on the other hand, are relentlessly devoted to arrogance in so much that you seem to possess some secret knowledge of corruption that you need to warn everyone about and that I may be a corrupter and one to be scrutinized. You serve the master of evils will in your efforts. Your reward of ignorance is already yours.