Is The God of the Bible the Devil?

[Jerry Pitts]

Heyday: In the following text, you agreed with my assertion that God has the right to do what ever is desired, by God' own self, with the creation that He created.

Originally Posted by Heyday

"Originally Posted by Jerry Pitts
In the hypothetical scenario I presented; Can you as the maker/creator of the brazen vessel destroy the vessel upon any whim that you desire?

Of course you can.

Exactly. So, What God can give, can He not take away?"

So why are you attempting to run circular logic around your own agreement with my assertion? You are acting as though you are attempting to operate some illogical self-defeat mechanism.

Jerry

[heyday]

Originally Posted by Jerry Pitts

Heyday: In the following text, you agreed with my assertion that God has the right to do what ever is desired, by God' own self, with the creation that He created.


So why are you attempting to run circular logic around your own agreement with my assertion? You are acting as though you are attempting to operate some illogical self-defeat mechanism.

Jerry

I know the standard response to the question is "man can not know and understand the ways of God."

Question being:

How could a loving God indulge in a contest with Satan in which human souls linger upon the outcome, such determination establishing whether they will burn in hell for eternity, or enjoy the fruits of paradise for eternity.

That's a nice concept. Two almighty supernatural beings playing a game like that, wagering my soul on the outcome!

I would envision a just God either killing the disobedient immortals or at least banishing them to some place where they wouldn't be causing any more trouble.

But, no!

Throw him down there with Adam and Eve in the Paradise in the Garden of Eden, and on top of that, give the vainglorious rebel kingship over the earth.

So, I guess Adam and Eve were the first pawns in the Game.

So, now, because they naturally fell for the trick, all of us, every single one of us, "fall short of the glory of the Lord." and may never be saved save for grace that we can never earn, but we can have so freely as a gift by merely believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

Personally, I am much more inclined to believe that God created the Devil, but that created Devil is a created part of Himself, by design, in order that there could be a created universe at all.

[heyday]

May I suggest a fascinating essay, not online?

I think it's titled "Answer to Job" in the collected works of Carl Jung.

Can God sin?

Did God murder Job's wife and children after being tempted by the Devil?

Did Adam stand a chance?

[heyday]

The Great Sufi Shaykh, Ibn al- 'Arabi wrote about these very things and William Chittick both translates and comments on the Sufi teachings in The Sufi Path of Knowledge. The following are extracts of both Al-'Arabi and Mr. Chitticks remarks, and I am not going to burden the text by differentiating. (Just read the book!):

Are they equal," asks the Koran, "those who know and those who know not? (39:9)

Knowledge is a divine attribute of all-encompassingness, so it is the most excellent bounty of God. ...For man, the seeker of knowledge, the acquisition of knowledge is endless, since the objects of knowledge are endless. This is the secret of man's felicity. Knowledge, the greatest good, is also the greatest joy and the greatest pleasure. The never-ending trajectory of man's life in the next world has to be explained in terms of his constant growth in knowledge.

For the felicitous, this knowledge is totally congruent and harmonious with their own souls, which have been shaped in this world throught faith and practice, and hence every increase in knowledge is an increase in felicity. For the wretched, knowledge of things as they actually are is a searing torture, since it contradicts their beliefs and practices in this world. Every new knowledge - every new self-discosure, recognized now for what it is - is a new misery.

Unveiling gives knowledge of the actual situation.

And what do we see?
We see that God actually manifests Himself in the forms which make up the contents of the cosmos and our minds. God "imaginalizes" Himself everywhere; werever we look, we perceive His "dream." Hence, we love God in everything that we love. God reveals Himself in every form, thus making it necessary that we love Him an ANY form which we love. Hence, all the Cosmos is noble in respect to its substance. There is no ranking in excellence within it. A maggot and the First Intellect are the same in the excellence of the substance. Ranking in excellence becomes manifest only within the forms, which are the properties of the levels.

The Barzakh or Breath of the All is one entity which is neither Being nor nothingness; it is imagination, which is He/not He. In this intermediary realm, every attribute necessarily goes back to God, who is the source of each reality, even the reality of "nonexistence."

The All undergoes fluctuation in states to make manifest our entities, just as the number "one" undergoes fluctuation in the levels of the numbers to make manifest their entities.

_________ __ ________ __

[heyday]

What is supposed to be our response to this SEEING?
Justice is to put everything in its proper place, while wisdom is to act as is proper in every situation. Proper activity is impossible without discernment of the right relationships. The "sage" or "possessor of wisdom" is He who does what is proper for what is proper as is proper.

The Prophet said, "Give to everyone who has a right his right." here the term may also be tranlated as "rightful due." The right of a person or a thing is that which he deserves on the basis of his nature and in keeping with the Law.

The person who gives each thing its due is not only wise, but also courteous.

The Divine root of courtesy is that God creates the world in order to manifest the properties of His names, and each name requires specific situations. Among these names are the "secondary causes," or the "created things" of the Cosmos. God has established the secondary causes for a purpose, and the man of courtesy gives each its due. This means letting each reality play its proper function. The person who wishes to "abolish" secondary causes shows discourtesy toward God.

The divine man of courtesy is he who affirms what God has affirmed in the place where God has affirmed it and in the manner in which He has affirmed it.

God did not establish the secondary causes aimlessly. He wanted us to stand up for them and rely upon them with a divine reliance. The Divine Wisdom makes this known... So the divine and courteous sage is he who places the secondary causes where God has placed them. No one abolishes the secondary causes except him who is ignorant that God has put them there. No one affirms the secondary causes except a great learned master, a man of courtesy in knowledge of God.

The sage among God's servants is he who puts each thing in its place and does not take it beyond its level. He gives to each that has a due its due, and does not judge anything according to his individual desire or his caprice. The sage considers the abode where God has settled him for a fixed term and he considers, without increase or decrease, the scope of the activity within this abode which God has laid down for him in the Law. Then he walks in the manner which has been explained to him and he never lets the Scale which has been set up for him in this abode drop from his hand.

________ __ _________ __

[heyday]

How does one come to know what something really IS at its root, and what is its due?
He comes to know the form of the situation through witnessing his own existence.

In other words, we learn to "ride the bicycle" by riding it. When we sincerely ask questions of the Universe, without preconceptions, assumptions, or expectations, our lives will begin to "form" the answer.
That is: the events, circumstances, relationships in our lives are the Reflection of the Presence of the Real. It is in learning to READ the signs, the symbols of our reality that we come to this ability of "giving each thing its due." The man whose soul is an undistorted mirror is the truthful man of felicity. Abu Bakr wrote "I have never seen anything without seeing God before it."

The possessor of unveiling comes to know that he is ever-creating and has always been such, though he was not aware. But it is not the case that he is "ever creating" from his own limited will and desires, but rather that he comes to know that the All is ever-creating THROUGH him, though he may not have previously known this.

See e.g., Everywhere you look,
There is the Face of God (Laura Knight) [Link]

[Jerry Pitts]

IMHO, in this thread, it has become readily apparent that you are attempting to wage war against God and also attempting to use your limited intelligence against God for the purpose of 1: proving that you are smarter than your creator; 2: attempting to dissuade others in their particular belief system.

No further comments from me with regard to this subject matter. If you have a problem with God, take it up with Him. Have a nice evening.

Jerry

[heyday]

These Texts most likely pre-date the Gospels.

The Catholic Church (of God the Satan) attempted to wipe out this knowledge.

That in itself establishes a certain amount of credibility to me!

I'm talking about the Nag Hammadi Codices:

The Nag Hammadi Library
Alphabetical Index [Link]

I have established the background for these ancient texts in the thread linked to in the beginning of this thread with the subject header "The Problem With The US Government [Link]", more specifically on the page available here [Link] (second post continuing from there...)

[heyday]

Originally Posted by Jerry Pitts

IMHO, in this thread, it has become readily apparent that you are attempting to wage war against God and also attempting to use your limited intelligence against God for the purpose of 1: proving that you are smarter than your creator; 2: attempting to dissuade others in their particular belief system.

No further comments from me with regard to this subject matter. If you have a problem with God, take it up with Him. Have a nice evening.

Jerry

I have no problem with God. I do have a problem with the Bible and it's portrayal of God.

Is the Catholic Corrupted Bible the last word, or do other early "heretical scriptures" have any validity?

[heyday]

The Nag Hammadi Library

On the Origin of the World
("The Untitled Text")

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Translated by Hans-Gebhard Bethge and Bentley Layton


Seeing that everybody, gods of the world and mankind, says that nothing existed prior to chaos, I, in distinction to them, shall demonstrate that they are all mistaken, because they are not acquainted with the origin of chaos, nor with its root. Here is the demonstration.

How well it suits all men, on the subject of chaos, to say that it is a kind of darkness! But in fact it comes from a shadow, which has been called by the name 'darkness'. And the shadow comes from a product that has existed since the beginning. It is, moreover, clear that it existed before chaos came into being, and that the latter is posterior to the first product. Let us therefore concern ourselves with the facts of the matter; and furthermore, with the first product, from which chaos was projected. And in this way the truth will be clearly demonstrated.

After the natural structure of the immortal beings had completely developed out of the infinite, a likeness then emanated from Pistis (Faith); it is called Sophia (Wisdom). It exercised volition and became a product resembling the primeval light. And immediately her will manifested itself as a likeness of heaven, having an unimaginable magnitude; it was between the immortal beings and those things that came into being after them, like [...]: she (Sophia) functioned as a veil dividing mankind from the things above.

Now the eternal realm (aeon) of truth has no shadow outside it, for the limitless light is everywhere within it. But its exterior is shadow, which has been called by the name 'darkness'. From it, there appeared a force, presiding over the darkness. And the forces that came into being subsequent to them called the shadow 'the limitless chaos'. From it, every kind of divinity sprouted up [...] together with the entire place, so that also, shadow is posterior to the first product. It was <in> the abyss that it (shadow) appeared, deriving from the aforementioned Pistis.

Then shadow perceived there was something mightier than it, and felt envy; and when it had become pregnant of its own accord, suddenly it engendered jealousy. Since that day, the principle of jealousy amongst all the eternal realms and their worlds has been apparent. Now as for that jealousy, it was found to be an abortion without any spirit in it. Like a shadow, it came into existence in a vast watery substance. Then the bile that had come into being out of the shadow was thrown into a part of chaos. Since that day, a watery substance has been apparent. And what sank within it flowed away, being visible in chaos: as with a woman giving birth to a child - all her superfluities flow out; just so, matter came into being out of shadow, and was projected apart. And it did not depart from chaos; rather, matter was in chaos, being in a part of it.

And when these things had come to pass, then Pistis came and appeared over the matter of chaos, which had been expelled like an aborted fetus - since there was no spirit in it. For all of it (chaos) was limitless darkness and bottomless water. Now when Pistis saw what had resulted from her defect, she became disturbed. And the disturbance appeared, as a fearful product; it rushed to her in the chaos. She turned to it and blew into its face in the abyss, which is below all the heavens.