Caesar

[goldphoenix]

I would love to hear anyone share their feelings/opinions/thoughts on this passage: "Yeshua (is this correct?) then said: "Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar, but YHWH's things to YHWH." And they began to marvel at him."

Also in Luke: "He said to them: "By all means, then, pay back Caesar's things to Caesar, but YHWH's things to YHWH."

There is also the passage in Luke: "Then they started to accuse him, saying: "This man we found subverting our nation and forbidding the paying of taxes to Caesar and saying he himself is Christ a king."

And the passage in John: "However, they shouted: "Take him away! Take him away! Impale him!" Pilate said to them: "Shall I impale your king?" The chief priests answered: "We have no king but Caesar."

The question asked of Yeshua was in Matthew: "Tell us, therefore, What do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?"

Also in Luke we see that Joseph went to get registered as was decreed: "Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Au-gus'tus for all the inhabited earth to be registered;"

And the passage in John: "For this reason Pilate kept on seeking how to release him. But the Jews shouted, saying: "If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Every man making himself a king speaks against Caesar."

Please do share! A lot of my freedom goals are based on my best attempts at following Biblical (YHWH) Law. I have a long and difficult path ahead of me and want ot make sure I am doing the right thing in all aspects of my (and my family's) lives.

Some people use this passage to say that we should pay taxes. Any thoughts on this?

Agape,

goldphoenix

[suijuris]

Under the common law, all rights are derived from property.

>>> By all means, then, pay back Caesar's things to Caesar <<<

You must determine what things are YOURS and what things are NOT YOURS, and who it is that gave you those things that are YOURS .

Hint #1: My labor is my own, and it was given to me by my Creator. So how can I pay back the "king" for some property or right he did not endow me with?

If one allows his/her Right to labor to be subverted to a privilege, then yes, you best pay back the "king" for that privilege.

Once you understand the concepts of Property and Rights, this will become very clear to you. I recommend the videos linked to here:
http://www.suijuris.net/main/suijuri...showtopic=1238

Regards,
Sui Juris

[rushpat]

Well said SuiJuris! Thanks for setting up such a great website. I really like the autogenerating forms.

As for the issues that goldphoenix raised, I suggest you jump into the forums over at ecclesia.org:

http://www.ecclesia.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=17


Also, read the intro to the Great IRS Hoax book at the familyguardian.tzo.com:

http://famguardian.org/Publications/...eatIRSHoax.htm

[Ice]

There is the story of Peter and the tax situation... basically, Peter "contracted" Messiah into the tax... Messiah asked Peter who the tax was laid on -- the answer: strangers and foreigners therefore the children are free.& But, in order that they "not offend" He sent Peter out to catch a fish which contained a gold coin in its mouth in order to pay the tax for them (that Peter had "contracted" them into paying).


Just because Caesars pic was on the coin doesn't mean that Caesar owned it... If the coin was given to you in exchange for your labor, then you own the coin.& The image is only on the coin to "honor" the one whose image it is.


&

[KaosTheory]

Ice I think you missed a very important point. Peter did not contract Jesus into it. If so, how exactly. Did Rome function on presumption as the US Inc does?



Rome was on a mission to conquer and subjugate the whole world. It made more sense to expand the tax base of Rome by imposing it's will on smaller countries and exacting tribute in exchange for not destroying everyone and everything.



Jerusalam was under occupation and the tax was a tribute. Not an excise, tarriff, or duty. Peter did not conquer Jerusalem in the name of Rome. Even if he did, contracts are void without mutual consent.



Sorry if I'm splitting hairs here. This is an interesting passage in the NT though.



KT

[Ice]

Keep reading it over and over... it took a long time for me to see what I have explained. But, the words of Messiah are sure... His words as recorded, give the answer that there is no tax on them... but Peter had already stated that they "pay taxes". If my perception of that conversation and the implications made by His words is in error, it has not been properly addressed in such a way as to break through this thick skull of mine. Know what I mean?



Remember, when we read we tend to associate with the present ... and sometimes miss keys or introduce new keys that are not there... make sense?



Ice

[KaosTheory]

I think another key to understanding this is the reason behind Caesar's picture being on the coin. His picture is on because it is his property. I think the word tax should be replaced by the word tribute. Now read this quote again.



"Does a good king charge his own people tribute or conquered foreigners?"



If you use his property you are either a one of his people or a conquered foreigner. It is only the conquered foreigners who are expected to pay tribute. That is, if Caesar is a good king. If not, I suppose he would exact tribute from his own people as well.



KT

[iamfreeru2]

Goldphoenix,



I believe Jesus was saying to the Pharisees and the Herodians that if you believe Caesar to be your ruler then render to him this tribute. Just as Koas Theory has said this is what it was, a tibute.



Now these men that were trying to trap Jesus knew the law very well and who's law was it, Caesars or God's? Who was their king? Was it not Caesar? Did they not follow his law as the conquering ruler? That is why Jesus said to render to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. Those that belong to God know that all belongs to him. These men knew full well what Jesus was saying, that everything belongs to God. In Jesus' ministry did He not teach this, that nothing is our own, but all belongs to God? That it all comes from the Father? If you think you own your labor think again. It all belongs to the father, everthying!! You did not create it and if it weren't for the Father you would not even have a breath. That is why we return a portion of what we receive back to Him out of worship and prasie for what He has done for us.



God only requires 10% tithe from His children. One of the problems today is that people think that our government is Caesar and rather than worship the Lord and give him the first fruits of their labor (tithe), they are rendering this tribute to Caesar because they have been led to believe the Federal United States is Caesar. God is left out of the equation. Then if people do put in the offering plate it so they can get a write off. God says if you love Him give because He is God and has blessed you and because you want to return a portion of that blessing out of love a gratitude. It all belongs to Him anyway.



The IRS requires more of us than God does. If God only requires 10% and He is the one that gave us all then why do we turn over our labor to the IRS. They did not give it to us and are certainly not Caesar.



Do not confuse this passage with the passage about the temple tax, as they are not talking about the same issue.



iamfreeru2