"GOD IS THE UNIVERSE, so GOD IS both GOOD AND EVIL."

[iamfreeru2]

I started this thread from a post by PANICPASS in the Dorean Group's Method For Discharge thread. Panicpass I would love to discuss this more with you. What say ye?

[rushpat]

Are you suggesting that God created himself? The universe is a creation, separate from the creator.

Originally Posted by rushpat

Are you suggesting that God created himself? .

Now that would be a cool trick!

I borrowed this from another site. Simple enough for even the most misquided to understand.

An acquaintance of mine who is into New Age religion said that God is both good and evil, and said the Bible proved that in Isaiah 45:7. I thought God was only love?

Unfortunately the King James Version (KJV/AV) of the Bible can give that very impression because of the usage of words four centuries ago. For it says: "I [God] form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (AV).

Notice, however, that the KJV, for all its faulty translation, does not say that God is evil but that He creates evil. A better translation, conveying more of the original sense of the writer, would be: "I bring prosperity and I create disaster" (NIV) or "I bring bliss and calamity" (Moff.). Seen in the light of other Scripture (and we must always look at the whole and not parts separated from the organic whole) what this is saying is that God has allowed evil to co-exist in this sphere in order to test man as well as to perfect him. It is in the midst of such opposition, unpleasant though it often is, that man grows spiritually the most. Therefore, as Yahweh gave Satan permission to afflict Job, so He permits the same with us, unless our affliction is of our own making or the collective fault of unredeemed society.

Because God permits evil to co-exist with good in this sphere it is often tempting -- especially when we are in the thick of it -- to believe that God is somehow the author of all that is bad. He isn't. He could not, of His own free will, do evil Himself without undermining everything that He stands for.

But surely, someone might argue, He is guilty by association. Even though someone might not actually muder a person, he might be guilty as an accomplice. If God is permitting evil, is He not, in a way, an accomplice?

The answer has to be 'no' because He is not out to destroy man but save him. Satan wants only to destroy. An accomplice in a murder has the same end -- the death of an individual. God, in a way, recruits Satan (without him being aware) to do what He by His own nature could never do, in much the same way that Satan recruits good in order to effect evil.

P.S. I don't necessarily agree the KJV is incorrect. I use about 6 different version when comparing texts.

[iamfreeru2]

What YHWH created was good according to the Genesis account of creation (See Genesis 1-2). The problem came when man was created and the serpent (satan) deceived Eve in the garden (See Genesis 3:3-5). Thus we have the fall of mankind into a sin nature. Satan wanting to be like YHWH was cast out of heaven and he is the author of evil. Since YHWH cannot allow sin (evil) into heaven Satan was cast down to rule the earth forever banned.

Because God permits evil to co-exist with good in this sphere it is often tempting -- especially when we are in the thick of it -- to believe that God is somehow the author of all that is bad. He isn't. He could not, of His own free will, do evil Himself without undermining everything that He stands for.

But surely, someone might argue, He is guilty by association. Even though someone might not actually muder a person, he might be guilty as an accomplice. If God is permitting evil, is He not, in a way, an accomplice?

The answer has to be 'no' because He is not out to destroy man but save him. Satan wants only to destroy. An accomplice in a murder has the same end -- the death of an individual. God, in a way, recruits Satan (without him being aware) to do what He by His own nature could never do, in much the same way that Satan recruits good in order to effect evil.

I agree PJC. YHWH cannot sin, as it is against His nature to do so. He is holy and nothing unholy can be in His presence. If He were to do evil then He would not be YHWH and would be totally untrustworthy. No one would come to Him for salvation, for why would anyone want what He has to offer if He himself was evil? I for one would not. If His word is a lie then none of us have any hope. Because YHWH is holy the mere suggestion that He could be evil at the same time is ludicrous. Therefore, How can a holy God indwell a sinner?

The first thing one must realize is that the Bible is the word of YHWH and that he/she is a sinner (Romans 3:23) and in need of a savior. One must also believe YHWH is. Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is imposible to please Him, for he who comes to YHWH must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Hebrews 11:1 " Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

[hAKEEM]

Remember to understand God you must leave that label alone because God means anything or Idol etc being worship. I like the word eternal or creator because everything was created by it. It was man who distorted the true teachings. Man created a God(Good) and Devil(evil) but you must see that you need both postive and negative to exist it is how you use your system It is the law.

[PANICPASS]

Originally Posted by rushpat

Are you suggesting that God created himself? The universe is a creation, separate from the creator.

God is not a person, so no, I am not suggesting that God created himself. God is EXISTENCE. God did not create the universe. If God created the world, then who created him? And if God can be uncreated, then what is the point of bringing in an unnecessary hypothesis?

There is a basic principle of all scientific research: don't bring in unnecessary hypotheses. Work it out with the minimum of hypotheses. If God is to be created by another, bigger God, you will end in absurdity, what logicians call regressum infinitum. You will regress into infinity and you will not find the answer. The question will remain exactly where it was: who created God?

So all you religious people out there: stop talking as if God were a him or a her. God is not a person or a savior. Get real. If you want a savior talk to Jesus. He'll save you.

[iamfreeru2]

PANICPASS,

How do you know that YHWH is not a person? Can you prove the Bible to be incorrect? Does science disprove creation or does it verify it? Why or why not? How did the universe come into existance? If you say it just happened by a big band theory out of nothing then how can nothing create something?

hAKEEM,

How did the positive and negative come into existance? Where did the Law come from? You say man distorted the truth. Where does truth come from?

There are many other questions that I can come up with, but these will do for starters.

You can not tell me your beliefs are based on fact. It takes more faith to believe what you believe. There have been many things uncovered by science that proves creation and the accounts of the Bible to be accurate and disproves evolution.

[PANICPASS]

PANICPASS,

How do you know that YHWH is not a person?

You must be talking about some imaginary person. If you are talking about "YHWH" that is in the bible, that is an imaginary entity/person. You must be imagining HIM. Have you ever seen this so-called "YHWH" person?

[wirlwind]

So all you religious people out there: stop talking as if God were a him or a her. God is not a person or a savior. Get real. If you want a savior talk to Jesus. He'll save you.[/quote]


Panicpass,

God IS. He always has been and always will be. There is the Trinity. God, the Father, Jesus, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This can often be confusing. I am one person, but I am 3 different people to others. I am my child's mother, my husbands wife, and my father's daughter- one person but being a different person to 3 different people. There was God, the Creator and Father in the beginning and then Jesus the Savior, and when Jesus ascended back into heaven, the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us, and be with us until Jesus returns for us. How can you believe in Jesus as a savior, if you can't believe in the existence of God as a person. By the way, I am not religious. I am about some things. I religiously brush my teeth twice a day; take a bath everyday; eat everyday. So I guess I am religious in that sense. However, I am a believer in the one and only true God, saved by His Son, Jesus Christ, through faith, and led by the Holy Spirit. But I don't consider myself religious-just forgiven.