Was Jesus crucified for resisting taxes? Lk 23-1

[Gray]

the idea that perhaps the parable about jesus and his crucifiction was written by the Romans who also wrote the law of the day and that you have within the bible an excellent resource book for both law and commerce relevant to this day?

[2tim215]

Originally Posted by idknow

if you want to say that he died for messing with the "money" as Lincoln and Kennedy did

then you have to point to the event when Jesus evicted the merchants from the public goyim area of the Temple.

Jesus was angry because they were buying and selling in the temple which was supposed to be a house of worship. Aside from selling animals, they (the moneychangers) were apparently doing currency exchanges (which I believe was pointed out by David) where they were making a profit by converting non-Jewish money from foreigners into Jewish money and He (Jesus) was offended by this. The moneychangers were essentially the bankers, kind of like the FRB I suppose you could say.

John 2:13(KJV) And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
John 2:14(KJV) And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
John 2:15(KJV) And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
John 2:16(KJV) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
merchandise - G1712 ἐμπόριον emporion em-por'-ee-on
Neuter from G1713; a mart (“emporium”):—merchandise.
Notice the word merchandise is the Greek word "emporion" which is where we get our english word Emporium.
John 2:17(KJV) And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

I'm not sure that I agree with it all, but here's an interesting article I came across regarding this subject which has a slightly different slant to what I've seen in the past. The author here claims that it was their animal sacrifices that Jesus was really most angry about.

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/JR-Hyland.htm

2tim215
2 Tim 2:15(KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[idknow]

thank you very much;

I believe your post assists mine in proving the point.

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by idknow

butbutbut, he paid!

he sent peter to fish out coins!

i dont get this thread. but that's me.

what am I missing here that hasnt been written plainly?

One has to keep perspective about the different kinds of currency available at that time.* The event and its obvious symbolism (finding coins in fish) teaches me more about Peter testifying for Jesus. Peter should have said, "Go ask Jesus." Jesus was obviously a little miffed with Peter for making the obligation to pay up.

It may have been that at about this time Jesus was figuring out the moneychanger scam and did not appreciate the priests pushing for a promise to pay up.



Regards,

David Merrill.





* Contracting the drachma was a hidden tax. Between the two events (Give unto Caesar and Peter speaking hearsay for Jesus) one can work out the entire lesson. The Herodians were not making an obvious taxation to Caesar, they were hoarding the drachma (half-shekel) and making the pilgrims pay an inflated price to get them back, only to pay them back into the Temple till.

[Shoonra]

Originally Posted by 2tim215

Jesus was angry because they were buying and selling in the temple which was supposed to be a house of worship.

There would seem to be two businesses going on in tandem in the Temple, primarily because it was the week before Passover. Worshippers were expected to bring an animal sacrifice to the Temple on the eve of Passover; that's why animals of the sort suitable for Temple sacrifice were being sold. It appears that the animal sacrifices were the primary means of subsidizing the Temple and its considerable faculty because many of the offerings were used to feed the Temple staff.

Additionally there was an annual half-shekel tithe (per adult male) to be paid to the Temple that was coming due in the week before Passover. A half-shekel was a rather small coin, within the capacity of almost anybody to pay (Exodus 30:13 et seq.), but as the Jews hadn't been able to mint any shekels for at least the last 70 years payment in this coin required changing Roman or other currency for an old half-shekel coin which, once deposited in the Temple coffers, was undoubtedly sold again to another tithe-payer, so this repeated sale or exchange of new currency for antique coins was undoubtedly done by, or with the cooperation of, the Temple priesthood.

It is not clear if there was any sort of dishonesty or overcharging in these activities but they probably were run at a profit which also went (or at least a part of it went) into the Temple treasury. However, I am not going to contradict Jesus' words about it.

So Jesus' disruption of the sale of animals and the reselling of the Temple coins would naturally have antagonized not only the Temple priests but a great many worshippers, some of whom had traveled considerable distances for the purpose of presenting the half-shekel (and possible an animal) to the Temple.

Anyway, these activities were unrelated to the taxes demanded by the Romans.

[scottinalaska]

A couple things here.
As I understood it, the animals for sacrifice had to be "approved." If you didn't bring one, they'd sell you one. If you didn't bring one that met their standards, you could buy one from them.Hence, it was quite the emporium where you could get everything needed for the day/week!
As for fishing out the coin from the fish:
Sure, Jesus was miffed for Peter speaking out of line FOR Jesus, but to not dishonor his word, he paid. Not because he was supposed to according to the temple authorities, but because Peter's word needed to be honored. Some will say, "See? Jesus knew he had to pay taxes and paid it!"
But Jesus did not take money from his own pocket. In fact, he took enough money to cover both Peter and Jesus that year from another source derived. Afterall, Jesus didn't approve of stealing and didn't want to be stolen from. I think Moses put that down in words a few years before that incident(kind of like 'render unto Ceasar - don't steal!). Getting it from a disinterested fish was purposeful, not just another good fish story.
scottinalaska

[David Merrill]

Anyway, these activities were unrelated to the taxes demanded by the Romans.

The Romans were allowing the Jews to continue their religious practices under the Roman occupation. Control and obedience were the hidden taxation I mentioned. Just prior to Jesus' time the Herodian Guard allowed the display of a Roman eagle on the Temple gate. Allowing the Jewish to practice religion was most certainly related to taxation. The Herodian Guard was nothing more than Roman occupation disguised by Jews working for the Romans disguised as religious Jews.

One has to explore outside the scope of canonizing and especially outside the early Masonic encryption by King James in 1611 in order to understand the contraction of the drachma (half-shekel) and what an assault that would be to honest people anywhere. From II Macabees 3:

1 Now when the holy city was inhabited with all peace, and the laws were kept very well, because of the godliness of Onias the high priest, and his hatred of wickedness,

2 It came to pass that even the kings themselves did honour the place, and magnify the temple with their best gifts;

3 Insomuch that Seleucus of Asia of his own revenues bare all the costs belonging to the service of the sacrifices.

There you have it. If the Herodians were using foreign currencies to pay Temple expenses, there is no excuse for demanding domestic currency from the Jewish pilgrims.

That is exactly like taking Public Money out of circulation and saying that Private Credit is the only currency. I believe Shoonra has already said as much - that FRNs cannot double for USNs...

http://friends-n-family-research.inf...ublicMoney.wmv

Even though the Treasury says that FRNs do serve all functions of USNs. [7:50 minute mark.]



Regards,

David Merrill.

[Shoonra]

I cannot fathom why you try to connect FRNs to a Biblical story.

The Herodians, being attached to Herod, tetrarch of Galilee, had little or no authority in Jerusalem. It was Romans who attempted to post an eagle at the Temple and this was bitterly resisted by the Jews, as was an attempt to post blank Roman shields.

I do not know if the Romans tried to tax the Temple activities. In any case, the selling of animals for sacrifice and the recycling of the old half-shekel coins were done to facilitate Jewish requirements for the Passover.

Seleucius may have subsidized the Temple in the period covered by Second Maccabees, but the event in the NT came long after Seleucius was dead, and the Romans had taken over.

It is, perhaps, worth mentioning that Jesus was born in a stable precisely because His parents were complying with a Roman tax that required an ancestral census. (By the way, this sort of return to ancestral homes for a Roman census or tax gathering is not mentioned in any other source.)

[jekylisland]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

I cannot fathom why you try to connect FRNs to a Biblical story.

Revelation 18:23 "By thy sorceries were all nations deceived"

Jesus instructed us that no one but the Father knows the hour at which He will return. But He also instructed us to "watch" and to "be prepared".

For those of us "watching" and "preparing", the deception of the IMF, World Bank and Federal Reserve passing-off debt instruments as money, may be indicative of the deception described in Rev. 18:23

When you couple that with the Ham, Cush, Nimrod connection to Egypt, post-diluvian sin, and the symbology on the Federal Reserve Note, I think being suspicious is the obvious reaction.

And for those whom would assist in the deception, I would direct them to Revelation 2:6. Jesus is expressing "hatred of the practices of" the Nicolaitans. This is the only time to my recollection that Jesus mentions hating anything.

Much more could be said of the etymology of Nicolaitans, and how their brand of gnosticism relates to the FRN symbology. But I have another commitment.

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

I cannot fathom why you try to connect FRNs to a Biblical story.

The Herodians, being attached to Herod, tetrarch of Galilee, had little or no authority in Jerusalem. It was Romans who attempted to post an eagle at the Temple and this was bitterly resisted by the Jews, as was an attempt to post blank Roman shields.

I do not know if the Romans tried to tax the Temple activities. In any case, the selling of animals for sacrifice and the recycling of the old half-shekel coins were done to facilitate Jewish requirements for the Passover.

Seleucius may have subsidized the Temple in the period covered by Second Maccabees, but the event in the NT came long after Seleucius was dead, and the Romans had taken over.

It is, perhaps, worth mentioning that Jesus was born in a stable precisely because His parents were complying with a Roman tax that required an ancestral census. (By the way, this sort of return to ancestral homes for a Roman census or tax gathering is not mentioned in any other source.)

I think Shoonra argues mostly for argument's sake.

The Romans were allowing the Jewish practice. It was the Herodians who were a resident Roman marshal supervising the appeasement. Herod was but a Roman puppet.

And the precedent is set long before Christ. Look at that admission by Shoonra. If the priests are using any currency for the Temple expenses, it is ludicrous to demand domestic currency for the Temple tax. I think that is pretty simple for the Readers to understand.

Thank you for making that clearer though, Shoonra.




Regards,

David Merrill.