just wondering out loud...

File these under "if A equals B, and B equals C, then A equals C":

RE: The Ten Commandments

1. The Ten Commandments were given to Moses, and therefore to the Jews (old-testament "Jew," not the NT "spiritual Jew").
2. The Jews were God's chosen people.
3. Therefore the Ten Commandments do not apply to Gentiles.

RE: Homosexuality

1. We insist that heterosexuals were the targeted audience for the laws of God.
2. Homosexuals were never directly and separately addressed, as were issues relating to women, the rich, and so forth.
3. Therefore, the condemnation of homosexual acts were directed at heterosexuals because such acts would be contrary to their natures, but not at homosexuals because such acts would be perfectly natural and normal.

Randy

Thus, there's nothing wrong with Michael Jacko?

in fact, Pedophilia must be normal?

C'mon.


I ain't saying you said that, just drawing conclusions from your conclusions.

Anybody touches my kids, they have a target on their heads.

You have to factor in the whole equation.

Did God create Adam and Steve? No.

Homosexuality is perversion. So is necrophilia, pedophilia, beastiality, etc.

Unless you are a Jew? I think not. Out Loud...

[Livefire]

Unless of course you agree with the Talmud.......The following will most likely offend many.....This is the book that has the preeminence in the Jewish faith...not Torah. As a note also....Yeshua and Paul both said that Messiah came to FULFILL the law, not abolish it. What was done away with was the fallible priesthood of Levi and its shadow and type ordinances and to FOREVER establish a more excellent priesthood after the order of Melchizedek who rules and reigns forevermore after the power of an INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE!!! If we lived by the civil code of Torah, most of our problems would be elimated with in one Sabbatical cycle. All debt would be wiped out. Upon Jubilee (50th year), every man would return again to their God given inheritance!

Talmudic Quotes:



The decisions of the Talmud are words of the living God. Jehovah himself asks the opinions of earthly rabbis when there are difficult affairs in heaven.

Rabbi Menachen, Comments for the Fifth Book

Jehovah himself in heaven studies the Talmud, standing: he has such respect for that book.

Tractate Mechilla/Me'ilah

R. Johanan said: A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance; it is our inheritance, not theirs. Then why is this not included in the Noachian laws? — On the reading morasha [an inheritance] he steals it; on the reading me'orasah [betrothed], he is guilty as one who violates a betrothed maiden, who is stoned. An objection is raised: R. Meir used to say. Whence do we know that even a heathen who studies the Torah is as a High Priest? From the verse, [Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:] which, if man do, he shall live in them. Priests, Levites, and Israelites are not mentioned, but men: hence thou mayest learn that even a heathen who studies the Torah is as a High Priest! — That refers to their own seven laws.

Sanhedrin 59a

To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.

Libbre David 37

A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.

Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17

We beg Thee, O Lord, indict Thy wrath on the nations not believing in Thee, and not calling on Thy name. Let down Thy wrath on them and inflict them with Thy wrath. Drive them away in Thy wrath and crush them into pieces. Take away, O Lord, all bone from them. In a moment indict all disbelievers. Destroy in a moment all foes of Thy nation. Draw out with the root, disperse and ruin unworthy nations. Destroy them! Destroy them immediately, in this very moment!

Prayer said on the eve of Passover (Pranajtis: Christianus in Talmudae Judeorum, quotations from: Synagoga Judaica)

The Feast of Tabernacles is the period when Israel triumphs over the other people of the world. That is why during this feast we seize the loulab and carry it as a trophy to show that we have conquered all other peoples, known as "populace"...

Zohar, Toldoth Noah 63b

When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves.

Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D

Resh Lakish said: He who is observant of fringes will be privileged to be served by two thousand eight hundred slaves, for it is said, Thus saith the Lord of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, etc.

Mas. Shabbath 31b

On the house of the Goy [Goy means unclean, and is the disparaging term for a non-Jew] one looks as on the fold of cattle.

Tosefta, Tractate Erubin VIII

When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156

If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth.

Choschen Hamm 388, 15

Happy will be the lost of Israel, whom the Holy One, blessed be He, has chosen from amongst the Goyim, of whom the Scriptures say: "Their work is but vanity, it is an illusion at which we must laugh; they will all perish when God visits them in His wrath." At the moment when the Holy One, blessed be He, will exterminate all the Goyim of the world, Israel alone will subsist, even as it is written: "The Lord alone will appear great on that day! . . .

Zohar, Vayshlah 177b

That the Jewish nation is the only nation selected by God, while all the remaining ones are contemptible and hateful.

That all property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples. An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to Jews in general.

A Jew may rob a Goy, he may cheat him over a bill, which should not be perceived by him, otherwise the name of God would become dishonoured.

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat, 348

R. Hanina said: If a heathen smites a Jew, he is worthy of death; for it is written, And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian. [Ex. 2:12] R. Hanina also said: He who smites an Israelite on the jaw, is as though he had thus assaulted the Divine Presence; for it is written, one who smiteth man [i.e. an Israelite] attacketh the Holy One.

Sanhedrin 58b
[In other words, if a non-Jew kills a Jew, the non-Jew can be killed. Punching an Israelite is akin to assaulting God. (But killing a non-Jew is NOT like assaulting God.]

If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.

Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5

Has it not been taught: "With respect to robbery — if one stole or robbed or [seized] a beautiful woman, or [committed] similar offences, if [these were perpetrated] by one Cuthean ["Cuthean" or "Samaritan" = goy/gentile/heathen/non-Jew] against another, [the theft, etc.] must not be kept, and likewise [the theft] of an Israelite by a Cuthean, but that of a Cuthean by an Israelite may be retained?" But if robbery is a capital offence, should not the Tanna have taught: He incurs a penalty? — Because the second clause wishes to state, "but that of a Cuthean by an Israelite may be retained," therefore the former clause reads, "[theft of an Israelite by a Cuthean] must not be kept." But where a penalty is incurred, it is explicitly stated, for the commencing clause teaches: "For murder, whether of a Cuthean by a Cuthean, or of an Israelite by a Cuthean, punishment is incurred; but of a Cuthean by an Israelite, there is no death penalty?"

Sanhedrin 57a
[Translation: A Jew may rob a Goy, but a Goy may not rob a Jew. If a Goy murders another Goy or a Jew, he should be killed, but a Jew will not be incur the death penalty for killing a non-Jew.]

Kill the Goyim by any means possible.

Choshen Ha'mishpat 425:50

Everyone who sheds the blood of the impious [non-Jews] is as acceptable to God as he who offers a sacrifice to God.

Yalkut 245c

Extermination of the Christians is a necessary sacrifice.

Zohar, Shemoth

Tob shebbe goyyim harog - Even the best of the Goyim (Gentiles) should be killed.

Soferim 15, Rule 10
[NB: Hoffman says, "This passage is not from the Soncino edition but is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, 'Gentile,' (p. 617)." Another source says this passage is at Avodah Zara 26b. We have not been able to verify any of these references. It does not seem to be at Avodah Zara 26b of the Soncino edition.]

What is [the meaning of] Mount Sinai? The mountain whereon there descended hostility [sin'ah ] toward idolaters [non-Jews].

Shabbath 89a

The same has been taught as follows: If the ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite [non-Jew] there is no liability, but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite . . . the payment is to be in full, as it is said: He stood and measured the earth, he beheld and drove asunder the nations [Gentiles], and again, He shined forth from Mount Paran. . . implying that from Paran he exposed their money to Israel.

]

[KaosTheory]

Just thinking out loud back to ya.

I view the Ten Commandments as terms of a contract. You will notice that when the Hebrews strayed from these guidelines, calamity was the result.

Why are the Hebrews chosen? What are/were they chosen for?

I believe their blood line was chosen to be the bloodline for the Messiah to come into this world. I believe they were suppose to be the example of righteousness to a fallen world and be the evangelists of the world.

I believe that the Ten Commandments are the clues to our fallen-ness. Why do we have to be told/commanded to be righteous if we are all basically 'good' people? If one desires to be righteous or live in a righteous manner then one should agree that these 10 Commandments seem reasonable IMO.

Apparently, the Creator wants us to live in harmony. If it were possible to follow these commandments at all times, I can see how that could be achieved.

I agree with HB on the homo thing. I see it as a perversion. If we are to multiply then homosexuality would not be conducive to that end.

KT

[Livefire]

Talmudic Quotes part 2.


Baba Kama 38a
[Trans: The property of the Israelite is more valuable than that of the Gentile. Mount Paran refers to Deut. 33:2, where God offered the law to the nations (Gentiles), who rejected it. The money of the Gentiles is available to the Israelites.]

ONE SHOULD NOT PLACE CATTLE IN HEATHENS' INNS, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF IMMORAL PRACTICE WITH THEM. A WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE ALONE WITH THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF LEWDNESS, NOR SHOULD A MAN BE ALONE WITH THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF SHEDDING BLOOD. . .

Why then should we not leave female animals alone with female heathens? — Said Mar 'Ukba b. Hama: Because heathens frequent their neighbours' wives, and should one by chance not find her in, and find the cattle there, he might use it immorally. You may also say that even if he should find her in he might use the animal, as a Master has said: Heathens prefer the cattle of Israelites to their own wives, for R. Johanan said: When the serpent came unto Eve he infused filthy lust into her.

Avodah Zarah 22a-b

He who pours the oil of anointing over cattle or vessels is not guilty; if over heathens or the dead, he is not guilty. The law relating to cattle and vessels is right, for it is written: Upon the flesh of man [adam] shall it not be poured; and cattle and vessels are not man. Also with regard to the dead, [it is plausible] that he is exempt, since after death one is called corpse and not man. But why is one exempt in the case of heathens; are they not in the category of adam?—No, it is written: And ye my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are adam [man]: Ye are called adam but heathens are not called ‘adam. But is it not written: And the persons [adam] were sixteen thousand? — Because it is used in opposition to cattle. But is it not written: And should I not have pity on Nineveh [that great city, wherein are more than six score thousand persons [adam]? — This too is used in opposition to cattle.

Mas. K'rithoth 6b
[This passage refers to anointing with oil. "Heathens," i.e., Gentiles, are not "adam" or man but are equated with cattle]

An objection was raised: And the persons were sixteen thousand!—This is due to [the mention of] cattle. Wherein are more than six-score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right and their left hand!—This is due [to the mention of] cattle.

Mas. Yevamoth 61b
[Again non-Jews are referred to as "cattle."]

All Israelites will have a part in the future world . . . The Goyim, at the end of the world will be handed over to the angel Duma and sent down to hell.

Zohar, Shemoth, Toldoth Noah, Lekh-Lekha

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

Everything a Jew needs for his church ritual no goy is permitted to manufacture, but only a Jew, because this must be manufactured by human beings and the Jew is not permitted to consider the goyim as human beings.

Schulchan Oruch, Orach Chaim 14, 20, 32, 33, 39

A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat.

Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348

A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl.

Gad. Shas. 2:2

A boy-goy after nine years and one day old, and a girl after three years and one day old, are considered filthy.

Pereferkowicz, Talmud t.v., p. 11

Raba stated: With reference to the Rabbinical statement that [legally] an Egyptian [Gentile] has no father, it must not be imagined that this is due to [the Egyptians'] excessive indulgence in carnal gratification, owing to which it is not known [who the father was], but that if this were known it is to be taken into consideration; but [the fact is] that even if this is known it is not taken into consideration. . . . Thus it may be inferred that the All Merciful declared their children to be legally fatherless, for [so indeed it is also] written, Whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Yevamoth 98a
[Trans.: A non-Jew is "legally fatherless," regardless of whether or not the father is known. Gentile children are essentially asses and horses, i.e., animals.

[The daughters of the heathens] should be considered as in the state of niddah [filth] from their cradle . . .

Avodah Zarah 36b

They decreed in connection with a heathen child that it should cause defilement by seminal emission so that an Israelite child should not become accustomed to commit pederasty with him. . . . It is therefore to be concluded that a heathen girl [communicates defilement] from the age of three years and one day, for inasmuch as she is then capable of the sexual act she likewise defiles by a flux. This is obvious!

Avodah Zarah 36b-37a

R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition [intercourse], and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; [if a niddah] she defiles him who has connection with her, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies, as a garment which has lain upon [a person afflicted with gonorrhoea].

Sanhedrin 55b

Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that. Samuel said: Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.24 (24) I.e., Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred. Samuel makes three the minimum.

Sanhedrin 54b

Raba said. It means this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this [three years old], it is as if one puts the finger into the eye; but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as ‘a girl who is injured by a piece of wood.’ . . .

Kethuboth 11b
[This debate concerns whether or not someone is a virgin. Virginity is prized above all, such that it is believed that a girl under the age of three will regain her virginity, even if a man has had intercourse with her. (Fn. 7 says, in regard to putting "the finger into the eye": "I.e., tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years.") Since virginity is prized above all, one could assume that this conclusion has allowed grown men to have sex with little girls with immunity. A grown-up woman is not deflowered by having sex with a small boy, however, since he is only like a "piece of wood."]

It was taught: R. Judah used to say, A man is bound to say the following three blessings daily: "[Blessed art thou . . .] who hast not made me a heathen," ". . . . who hast not made me a woman"; and " . . . who hast not made me a brutish man." R. Aha b. Jacob once overhead his son saying "[Blessed art thou . . .] who hast not made me a brutish man," whereupon he said to him, "And this too!" Said the other, "Then what blessing should I say instead?" [He replied,] . . . who hast not made me a slave." And is not that the same as a woman? - a slave is more contemptible.

Menachoth 43b-44a
[A "prayer" or "benediction" to be said by a Jewish man every day: "Thank God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave."]

Do not save Goyim in danger of death.

Show no mercy to the Goyim.

Hilkkoth Akum X1

A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean.

Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122

And he who desires that none of his vows made during the year shall be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, ‘Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null.1 [HIS VOWS ARE THEN INVALID,] PROVIDING THAT HE REMEMBERS THIS AT THE TIME OF THE VOW.

Nedarim 23b
[Essentially the "Kol Nidre" prayer said every year at Yom Kippur. Fn. 1 says: "This may have provided a support for the custom of reciting Kol Nidre (a formula for dispensation of vows) prior to the Evening Service of the Day of Atonement (Ran.). The context makes it perfectly obvious that only vows, where the maker abjures benefit from aught, or imposes an interdict of his own property upon his neighbour, are referred to. Though the beginning of the year (New Year) is mentioned here, the Day of Atonement was probably chosen on account of its great solemnity. But Kol Nidre as part of the ritual is later than the Talmud, and, as seen from the following statement about R. Huna h. Hinena, the law of revocation in advance was not made public."]

See what happens when someone (me!) spends too much time in a big-truck?

But the real "point" is this:

The older I get, the less I trust our demi-gods of "logic and reason." Give me a topic, and I WILL find a way--logically--to turn it upside down and inside out.

Logic may have its place in "exact" sciences like math, but for "everyday" living? No. It's the worst. And the reason is simple: No one likes the logical "conclusion" of things. So the tendency is to rely on "logic and reason" only as far as it supports our own positions. When it doesn't we'll inevitably fall back on "That's different...."

And re the 10 Commandments?

The best sermon I ever heard preached on this was a chap who said to think of them NOT as "commandments," but rather as "promises" made by those to whom they were given, i.e., the "chosen," the elect, the "true" believers, whatever.

And in that sense, they ARE a "contract." After all, "true" believers will NOT do murder, steal, and all the rest.

So for me, it's more of a "Luke, trust your feelings [intuition]...." sort of thing these days:

Isaiah 30:21 "and thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

Randy

[Livefire]

Better yet, its a covenant which carries far more weight than a contract ever could because it's consideration is based in reality (flesh and blood sacrifice) and not anything fiat (empty promises). God did promise to write his laws upon the fleshly tables of our hearts instead of stone.....

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah;
Jer 31:33 but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
Jer 31:35 So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day and the laws of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who divides the sea when its waves roar; Jehovah of Hosts is His name;
Jer 31:36 if those ordinances depart from Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.


Here is where the NT picks this thought up in Hebrews: As a note: This is THE book describing the priesthood of Yeshua.....I love the part where He is descirbed as having priesthood made with an OATH!!!! At least there is one judge who has filed His oath of office and is willing to honor it

Heb 10:15 The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us; for after He had said before,
Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
Heb 10:17 also He adds, "their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He has consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;
Heb 10:21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies having been washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised),
Heb 10:24 and let us consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,
Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

by Livefire

...I will put My Law in their...in their hearts...

Ah, that's the one I can never find when I try. Thanks for posting it!

Randy

[scottinalaska]

LF, good to see you noted that the Holy Spirit has at least filed his Oath of Office! Amazing what springs forth new when you are aware!

As for the homo thing, I'll just jump in quick on this one:
We are told the gay boy has no choice, it is genetic, he inherited it just like his blue eyes. My response is, "From whom? His mother or father? Or was it that grandfather a few years back?"
We are desperately searching for the gay gene. But alas, I think it just won't be found. We all make choices and depending on our growing up years and circumstances, some lead to destruction, others lead to enlightenment. YMMV.
scottinalaska

[Livefire]

This oath thing is mind blowing when you meditate upon it........

Heb 7:11 Therefore if perfection were by the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the Law), what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also.
Heb 7:13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is still far more evident, since there arises another priest after the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who is made, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For He testifies, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18 For truly there is a putting away of the commandment which went before, because of the weakness and unprofitableness of it.
Heb 7:19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
Heb 7:21 (for those priests were made without an oath, but this one was made with an oath by Him who said to Him, "The Lord swore and will not repent, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek,")
Heb 7:22 by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not allowed to continue because of death;
Heb 7:24 but He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners and made higher than the heavens,
Heb 7:27 who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself.
Heb 7:28 For the Law appoints men high priests who have infirmity, but the word of the swearing of an oath, after the Law, has consecrated the Son forever, having been perfect[ed.