Debate with Christians or Mormons

[BoyntonStu]

From another forum:

Enjoy,

BoyntonStu
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Debate with Christians or Mormons. What's the difference?

Well, it'd be nice to hear from a Christian the difference between what Christians do to the Hebrew Scriptures (to justify the Greek scripture) and what Mormons do to the New Testament scriptures (to justify their Book of Mormon).

All the types/shadows/allegory that somehow justifies the Greek scriptures is for some reason not allowed for Mormons who do the same to justify the Book of Mormon.

So when a Mormon reads the New Testament and chooses types/shadows/allegory over the plain text, that's wrong. It's also wrong for the Mormon to take things out of context or to claim there is some spiritual dimension to the plain text that Christians take a little "too" literally.

But it's okay for Christians to do the same to the Hebrew Scriptures?

I want to know the difference. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Logan]

Mormons ARE christians! Why do you think the name says The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

I am not interested in any of your antagonistic invitations to argue your pointless retoric stu.

Knowledge is what you lack and knowledge is what you should seek. Call the 1-800 number and get your free copy of the Book of Mormon mailed to you and READ it. Then pray about it and ask if it is of God and if it is true.

James: chapter 1, verse 5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Do you have a prayerful relationship with your creator stu?

[BoyntonStu]

[quote=Logan]Mormons ARE christians! Why do you think the name says The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

This is typical of Christian views of Mormons. There are many more.

Enjoy,

Boyntonstu
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CULT 012

In debating and discussions with non-Christians such as Mormons
or atheist, I have found many areas of twisting of the
Scriptures. In the book "Scripture Twisting," James Sire has a
chapter devoted to each of the methods, and I have seen them ALL
used from time to time.

1. INACCURATE QUOTATION: A biblical text is referred to but is
either not quoted in the way the text appears in any standard
translation or is wrongly attributed. Example: The Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi says, "Christ said, 'Be still and know that I am
God.'" Whereas this text is found ONLY in Psalms.

2. TWISTED TRANSLATION: The biblical text is retranslated, not in
accordance with sound Greek scholarship, to fit a preconceived
teaching of a cult. Example: the Jehovah's Witnesses translate
John 1:1 as "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was
with God, and the word was a god."

3. BIBLICAL HOOK: A text of Scripture is quoted primarily as a
device to grasp the attention of readers or listeners and then
followed by a teaching which is so nonbiblical that it would
appear far more dubious to most people had it not been preceded
by a reference to Scripture. Example: Mormon missionaries quote
James 1:5 which promises God's wisdom to those who ask him and,
then, follow this by explaining that when Joseph Smith did this
he was given a revelation from which he concluded that God the
Father has a body.

4. IGNORING THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT: A text of Scripture is quoted
but removed from the surrounding verses which form the immediate
framework for its meaning. Example: Alan Watts quotes the first
half of John 5:39 ("You search the Scriptures, because you think
that in them you have eternal life"), claiming that Jesus was
challenging His listeners' over emphasis of the Old Testament,
but the remainder of the immediate context reads, "and it is they
that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you
may have life" (verses 39-40), which shows that Jesus was
upholding the value of the Old Testament as a testimony to
Himself.

5. COLLAPSING CONTEXTS: Two or more verses which have little or
nothing to do with each other are put together as if one were a
commentary of the other(s). Example: The Mormons associate
Jeremiah 1:5 with John 1:2,14 and thus imply that both verses
talk about the premortal existence of all human beings; Jeremiah
1:5, however, speaks of God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah (Not his
premortal existence) and JOhn 1:2 refers to the pre-existence of
God the Son and not to human beings in general.

6. OVERSPECIFICATION: A more detailed or specific conclusion than
is legitimate is drawn from a biblical text. Example: The Mormon
missionary manual quotes the parable of the virgins from Matthew
25:1-13 to do***ent the concept that "mortality is a probationary
period during which we prepare to meet God." But the parable of
the virgins could, and most probably does, mean something far
less specific, for example, that human beings should be prepared
at any time to meet God or to witness the Second Coming of Jesus
Christ.

7. WORD PLAY: A word or phrase from a biblical translation is
examined and interpreted as if the revelation had been given in
that language. Example: mary Bake Eddy says the name Adam consist
of two syllables, A DAM, which means an obstruction, in which
case, Adam signifies "the obstacle which the serpent, sin, would
impose between man and his Creator."

8. THE FIGURATIVE FALLACY: Either (1) mistaking literal language
for figurative language or (2)mistaking figurative language for
literal language. Example of (1): Mary Baker Eddy interprets
EVENING as "mistiness of mortal thought; weariness of mortal
mind; obscured views; peace and rest." Example of (2): The Mormon
theologian james Talmage interprets the prophesy that "thou shalt
be brought down and speak out of the ground" to mean that God's
Word would come to people from the Book of Mormon which was taken
out of the ground at the hill of ***orah.

9.SPECULATIVE READINGS OF PREDICTIVE PROPHESY: A predictive
prophesy is too readily explained by the occurance of specific
events, despite the fact that equally committed biblical scholars
consider the interpretation highly dubious. Example: The stick of
Judah and the Stick of Joseph in Ezekiel 37:15-23 are interpreted
by the Mormons to mean the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

10. SAYING BUT NOT CITING: A writer says that the Bible says such
and such but does not cite the specific text (which often
indicates that there may be no such text at all). Example: A
common phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is not found
in the Bible.

11. SELECTIVE CITING: To substantiate a given argument, only a
limited number of text is quoted: the total teaching of Scripture
on that subject would lead to a conclusion different from that of
the writer. Example: The Jehovah's Witnesses critique the
traditional Christian notion of the Trinity without considering
the full text which scholars use to substantiate the concept.

12. INADEQUATE EVIDENCE: A hasty generalization is drawn from too
little evidence. Example: The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that
blood transfusion is nonbiblical, but the biblical data that they
cite fails either to speak directly to the issue or to adequately
substantiate their teaching.

13. CONFUSED DEFINITION: A biblical term is misunderstood in such
a way that an essential biblical doctrine is distorted or
rejected. Example: one of Edgar Cayce's followers confuses the
eastern doctrine of reincarnation with the biblical doctrine of
being born again.

14. IGNORING ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATIONS: A specific interpretation
given to a biblical text or set of text which could well be, and
often have been, interpreted in quite a different fashion, but
these alternatives are not considered. Example: Erich von Daniken
asks why in Genesis 1:26 God speaks in the plural ("us"),
suggesting that this is an oblique reference to God's being one
of many astronauts and failing to consider alternative
explanations that either God was speaking as "Heaven's king
accompanied by His heavenly host" or that the plural prefigures
the doctrine of the Trinity expressed more explicitly in the New
Testament.

15. THE OBVIOUS FALLACY: Words like OBVIOUSLY, UNDOUBTEDLY,
CERTAINLY, ALL REASONABLE PEOPLE HOLD THAT and so forth are
substituted for logical reasons. Example: Erich von daniken says,
"Undoubtedly the Ark [of the Covenent] was electrically charged!"

16. VIRTUE BY ASSOCIATION: Either (1) a cult writer associates
his or her teaching with those of figures accepted as
authoritative by traditional Christians; (2) cult writings are
likened to the Bible; or (3) cult literature imitates the form of
the Bible writing such that it sounds like the Bible. Example of
(1): Rick Chapman list 21 gurus, including Jesus Christ, St.
Francis and St. Theresa, that "you can't go wrong with." Example
of (2): Juan Mascaro in his introduction to the Upanishads cites
the New Testament, the Gospels, Ecclesiastes and the Psalms, from
which he quotes passages supposedly paralleling the Upanishads.
Example of (3): The Mormon DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 93 interweave
phrases from the Gospel of John and maintains a superficial
similarity to the Gospel such that it seems to be like the Bible.

17. ESOTERIC INTERPRETATION: Under the assumption that the Bible
contains hidden, esoteric, meaning which is open only to those
who are initiated into its secrets, the interpreter declares the
significance of biblical passages without giving much, if any,
explanation for his or her interpretation. Example: Mary Baker
Eddy gives the meaning of the first phrase in the Lord's Prayer,
"Our Father which art in heaven," as "Our Father-Mother God, all
harmonious."

18. SUPPLEMENTING BIBLICAL AUTHORITY: New revelation from post
biblical prophets either replaces or is added to the Bible as
authority. Example: The Mormons supplement the Bible with the
Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great
Price.

19. REJECTING BIBLICAL AUTHORITY: Either the Bible as a whole or
texts from the Bible are examined and rejected because they do
not square with other authorities - such as reason or revelation
= do not appear to agree with them. Example:Archie Matson holds
that the Bible contains contradictions and that Jesus himself
rejected the authority of the Old Testament when he contrasted
His own views with it on the Sermon on the Mount.

20. WORLD-VIEW CONFUSION: Scriptural statements, stories,
commands or symbols which have a particular meaning or set of
meanings when taken within the intellectual and broadly cultural
framework of the Bible itself are lifted out of that context,
placed within the frame of reference of another system and thus
given a meaning that markedly differs from their intended
meaning. Example: The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi interprets "Be still,
and know that I am God" as meaning that each person should
meditate and come to the realization that he is essentially
Godhood itself.

Computers For Christ
San Jose, CA

[sadie]

Do born again Christians with absolute belief in the Bible consider Mormons to be true Christians?

[Wormwood]

It's divide and conquer, the goal is freedom to be what ever you want to be.
If you want to force any religion then your part of the problem.

oh read Book of Mormon it talks about Gadianton robbbers and that is what we have today.

THE BOOK OF HELAMAN

CHAPTER 6

The righteous Lamanites preach to the wicked Nephites—Both peoples prosper during an era of peace and plenty—Lucifer, the author of sin, guides the Gadianton robbers in their murders and wickedness—They take over the Nephite government. [Between 29 and 24 B.C.]

THE BOOK OF ETHER

CHAPTER 8

There is strife and contention over the kingdom—Akish forms an oath-bound secret combination to slay the king—Secret combinations are of the devil and result in the destruction of nations—Modern Gentiles are warned against the secret combination which shall seek to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries.

[BoyntonStu]

Originally Posted by sadie

Do born again Christians with absolute belief in the Bible consider Mormons to be true Christians?

Absolutely NOT!

These 'born again' do not think that any faith requiring acts for salvation are Christian. In their narrow minds, you gotta BELIEVE, BELIEVE, BELIEVE.

No matter how many acts of kindness you perform, if you don't BELIEVE, you pass GO and end up in the 'LAKE OF FIRE'.

My post on Mormons was authored by a 'BELIEVER'. Read how negative s/he is to especially point out Mormons as non-Christians. Equates them to Atheists!

And to claify, when they say BELIEVE, they mean in exactly the same manner that they BELIEVE. If not, go to HELL!


BELIEVE it or not!

[BoyntonStu]

THE BOOK OF ETHER

CHAPTER 8

There is strife and contention over the kingdom—Akish forms an oath-bound secret combination to slay the king—Secret combinations are of the devil and result in the destruction of nations—Modern Gentiles are warned against the secret combination which shall seek to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries.[/quote]


Did your thinking come about becaue you sniffed too much "BOOK OF ETHER"?

Do you also have a "Book of Glue"?

What is a BOOK? Ink on paper, written by a person or persons.

The pen is mightier than the sword! So mighty, that the ink can make people give their lives up for the sake of the ink!

It is easy to see it in others, but not in yourselves.

For example; Moslem homocide bombers are true BELIEVERS in the ink in their book called The Koran. They also believe their Iman 'authorities' who priomise them 72 virgins. (But they leave out the 72 mother-in-laws that come with them.)

Do they ever question this non-sense? NOT! The simply BELIEVE!

Christians BELIEVERS, look in the mirror and ask yourself, "WHY"?

I know that you messed up in your past, but now is the time to BELIEVE in yourself!

[Logan]

Stu,
I gather that you seriously lack humility towards our Savior and the sacrifice he made for you. You simply CANNOT attempt to place a scientific explanation of the awesome works of our Lord and Father and the Holy Spirit, you could not grasp the reasoning behind these works and if you do not humble yourself and fervently ask to know, then you never will.

Faith is a powerful thing. These revelations communicate straight to your humble spirit and come in the form of an emotional confirmation of the questions you seek explanations too. I gather from your antagonistic attitude that you do not possess much humility toward our Trinity and seek to be an "island unto ones self". Have you ever REALLY prayed at all for any guidance, are have you just been abused or hurt in the name of Christianity and seek to unravel its teachings in order to make yourself feel better?

However, We mormons could just do your proxy baptismal work for you after you die.

BTW, what is your definition of Christianity that you seem to believe Mormons are not a part of?

[BoyntonStu]

Originally Posted by Logan

Stu,
I gather that you seriously lack humility towards our Savior and the sacrifice he made for you. You simply CANNOT attempt to place a scientific explanation of the awesome works of our Lord and Father and the Holy Spirit, you could not grasp the reasoning behind these works and if you do not humble yourself and fervently ask to know, then you never will.

Faith is a powerful thing. These revelations communicate straight to your humble spirit and come in the form of an emotional confirmation of the questions you seek explanations too. I gather from your antagonistic attitude that you do not possess much humility toward our Trinity and seek to be an "island unto ones self". Have you ever REALLY prayed at all for any guidance, are have you just been abused or hurt in the name of Christianity and seek to unravel its teachings in order to make yourself feel better?

However, We mormons could just do your proxy baptismal work for you after you die.

BTW, what is your definition of Christianity that you seem to believe Mormons are not a part of?

"I gather that you seriously lack humility towards our Savior and the sacrifice he made for you."

What exactly did Jesus sacrifice? (explain what is written beneath my name)

A reminder. The opinions were not mine about whether or not Mormons are Chrisitian.

Calm down.

I accept Mormon's place in Christianity.

I accept the 45,000 Protestant sects in Christianity.


I accept the 1,000,000,000 Catholics in Christianity.


I just do not accept CHRISTIANITY! Any and all!

Most Christians on this site do not agree with me. Just ask them if they think Mormons are Christian.

BTW My son is partnered with 2 Mormons. Nice fellows.

Instead of retroactive proxy baptisms, I vote for retroactive birth control!

This discussion is a poignant one. It puts me in mind of my own spiritual metamorphosis over the last several years.

My husband and I are currently attending the Church of Religious Science – AKA Science of Mind – a fellowship which was originally founded by Ernest Holmes. I haven’t begun to read all of his reference material, and I’m sure I’d find something with which I would not 100% agree if I did. But we arrived here after having come through my husband’s cultural Catholicism (Italian American upbringing), Charismatic Christianity, United Methodism, and the first real break-away from Catholicism and Protestantism into Unitarian Universalism, which we attended exclusively for almost two years. The UU fellowship seemed highly political and slanted towards absolute atheism, so we searched further and found Religious Science. It seems to us to embody the best of spirituality and belief in a Creator, combined with respect for the scientific discoveries and knowledge which our inborn intelligence seems to have been created for. We do not have to “check our brains at the door”.

My break away from Christianity of any denomination originated with my horror and disgust at the very idea that we were created by any deity that demanded blood sacrifices – for any reason whatsoever. I simply do not believe that the same incomprehensible, ineffable intelligence that designed this amazing universe, and you and me, and the beautiful creatures that we have as our companions in this life, ever wanted anyone it designed and created to sacrifice a life and waste its blood upon an alter in some sort of blood-death-ritual as atonement for “sin”. I do not believe our Creator wanted us to memorialize such activities by passing symbolic blood around the room and drinking it together.

I do not believe that the intelligence behind this universe “wrote” any books – either directly or through so-called inspiration - especially books that instruct their readers/followers to reject, harm, or kill those who do not believe as they do.

I do not believe that our Creator attempted to test a man by telling him to kill his eldest son, and then stopped him at the last minute. About a year ago some woman told the police that God had instructed her to stone her children to death… and she did so. I guess she didn’t manage to hear “God” when “He” tried to tell her to stop… “STOP! This is only a TEST… of the Ecclesiastical Broadcast System!” How can anyone in their right mind believe that Bible story about Abraham and Isaac? My husband works for the Dept of Children and Families, and works with families who have abused their kids. Today, Abraham would have been visited by DCF and Isaac would be in a foster home for his own protection! Are we modern, educated human beings, or what??? Good grief…

I do not believe that our Creator instructed people to protect themselves by smearing lamb’s blood on door posts. I do not believe that our Creator wanted people to sacrifice lambs, or rams, or morning doves every day at 3 o’clock and splatter their blood around on an alter. I do not believe that our Creator wanted a beautiful young man to be unjustly tried, put through unspeakable torture, and publicly murdered as an atonement for our presumed sins. I do not believe that our Creator designed such diverse peoples and animals only to point out that certain ones are his “chosen people” and the rest are headed straight for “Hell”. I do not believe that a talking snake convinced some woman to tell her husband to eat an apple and caused the rest of humanity to be born under “original sin”. And I can hardly believe that educated human beings of the 21st Century are willing to walk into a place of worship and “check their brains at the door”. Incredible.

The warring and squabbling between the religions of this world are all together responsible for more death and more cruelty than any other force I can think of. It is all HOLY TERROR, and until it stops and is replaced by a more intelligent, compassionate spiritual fellowship that welcomes and emotionally supports anyone from any cultural background who comes in peace, we are all at risk of becoming nuclear waste.