Questions for Boynton Stu

This thread is certainly thought provoking, and I appreciate it.

It started me thinking about what it might have been like to grow up as Jesus of Nazareth. Did his mother tell him that he was conceived in her womb without sexual intercourse? Did she tell him that an angel came to her and told her that he was the son of god? Did his (step?) father, Joseph, tell him that he believed his wife, Mary, when she told him she had never had sex with another man? Would you have believed those things if your parents had said them to you?

The young Jesus was a Jew… did he believe that he was actually the messiah who was anticipated by his fellow Jews? Or did he grow up as an ordinary little boy who had to wonder about his mom and dad and what they were talking about when they said that kind of stuff? What must it have been like to be a young man, and to be told that you were the expected messiah, and you should expect to endure being made a human sacrifice? What about the garden of Gethsemane scene? How would you have felt… knowing what your followers and your parents all expected of you… knowing what was bound to happen to you tomorrow? Was there any way out? Did he submit out of social pressure? What if he was really just a man, and was put in this position and victimized because of the religious expectations of everyone around him? I can’t help but wonder.

Sure… I do believe that enduring torture and murder is a ‘sacrifice’ if you willingly submitted to it. Then we have to deal with exactly how much choice Jesus of Nazareth really had. If you believe he was actually one of the three incarnations of the same god/creator, than you can easily tell yourself that he knew what he was getting himself into and was intentionally giving himself up for it… but then, as BoyntoStu has pointed out, you have to also believe that he already knew what was coming and that he wasn’t really going to die. He did expect to endure physical and psychological suffering, however… any way you look at it… just like the pregnant mother who endured pain on behalf of her unborn child because she knew that the pain killing drugs are harmful. But that pregnant mother had a choice. She could spare herself pain and risk the health and well being of her child, or bear the pain and protect her child. Her choice.

I wonder how the little Greek boys who were each selected for their beauty and lack of blemish… and who were pampered and adored and prepared for human sacrifice for a year prior to the grisly deed might have actually felt? Can you even begin to imagine what it must have been like to realize you were going to be used as a human sacrifice… to know that you were not going to grow up and be a man… that your life was going to be taken for a religious ritual and you had no choice in the matter? Were the boys frightened? Or were they so inculcated in their religion that they thought they were going to some greater reward… much like an Islamic suicide bomber today??? Think about it. What if Jesus of Nazareth was just a religious young Jewish man, and he was swept up in a religious process by the beliefs and expectations of all those around him…and then just murdered?

Have you ever seen a film called “The Wicker Man”???

[BoyntonStu]

Originally Posted by HenryBowman

I notice you used the disclaimer "without any permanent" sacrifice.

Was the sacrifice at least temporary, then?

It appears you may be wanting to waffle on your absolutism.

Evidently, you know what is in the mind of a man who would smother a grenade, because you have refused to change your answer from "No=Insane or masochism."

[/b]

Whoah! Change my answer to which question?

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Sure… I do believe that enduring torture and murder is a ‘sacrifice’ if you willingly submitted to it. Then we have to deal with exactly how much choice Jesus of Nazareth really had. If you believe he was actually one of the three incarnations of the same god/creator, than you can easily tell yourself that he knew what he was getting himself into and was intentionally giving himself up for it… but then, as BoyntoStu has pointed out, you have to also believe that he already knew what was coming and that he wasn’t really going to die. He did expect to endure physical and psychological suffering, however… any way you look at it… just like the pregnant mother who endured pain on behalf of her unborn child because she knew that the pain killing drugs are harmful. But that pregnant mother had a choice. She could spare herself pain and risk the health and well being of her child, or bear the pain and protect her child. Her choice.

Heidi,

What I want to know is are there only two options if that "choice" is made.

and are those two lone options 1.insanity and/or 2.masochism?

Stu has said that these are the [only] reasons that someone would willingly choose to be beaten, killed, or suffer.

I want support for that, or in the absence of Stu's providing that, admission is tacitly given that Stu is just here blowing smoke.

Can he provide the evidence?

Henry Franklin

P.S. What is the Wicker Man?

[BoyntonStu]

[quote=HenryBowman]Heidi,



Stu has said that these are the [only] reasons that someone would willingly choose to be beaten, killed, or suffer.

Really? Where did I say that there are ONLY 2 possibilities?

[quote=BoyntonStu]

Originally Posted by HenryBowman

Heidi,



Stu has said that these are the [only] reasons that someone would willingly choose to be beaten, killed, or suffer.

Really? Where did I say that there are ONLY 2 possibilities?

Those are the only two you wrote, and in six posts above, I have given you opportunity to either show evidence that those are the only two possibilities ("reasons" is what you called them) or add more, and you have refused to do either.

Are you now insinuating that there may be more than 2 possibilities? Or, do you simply not know what to say?

Am I in error when I say I have given you opportunity to respond showing more possibilities for your "No" answer?

I again give you opportunity to either prove by providing evidence that a NO answer can only equal (as you have stated above) Insanity or Masochism, or maybe you would like to add another option or two to the No "reasons" ?

If I give you opportunity to answer, and you refuse, what I am saying must be correct, or you surely would have an answer.

Can you answer the posts, or will you keep evading the questions?

Thanks

Henry Franklin

P.S. This is still fun, huh?

Henry wrote:

Heidi,

What I want to know is are there only two options if that "choice" is made.

and are those two lone options 1.insanity and/or 2.masochism?

My answer concerning the choice to endure suffering and/or death would include other possibilities like being forced and over powered; social/religious pressure (like I described in my Q. what if Jesus was only human?), and in cases like a man throwing himself on a grenade or a mother choosing to suffer pain in childbirth rather than risk her unborn child's life, most likely an unselfish devotion to others' welfare.

Oh... I almost forgot.

"The Wicker Man" is a very hard-hitting movie about a celtic sacrifice ritual involving a human victim who is burned alive in a huge wicker cage, along with several animal victims. The story is extremely well done and very thought provoking.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/

[BoyntonStu]

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Henry wrote:



My answer concerning the choice to endure suffering and/or death would include other possibilities like being forced and over powered; social/religious pressure (like I described in my Q. what if Jesus was only human?), and in cases like a man throwing himself on a grenade or a mother choosing to suffer pain in childbirth rather than risk her unborn child's life, most likely an unselfish devotion to others' welfare.

I agree. You may add them to my list.

A soldier going into battle, never says to himself, "Gee if I see a grenade, I'm throwing myself onto it."


Do you think that Jesus was hoping for 72 virgins?

"I wanna girls just like the girls that married dear old dad?"

BTW Only begotten son? Why is that? Could not God have a couple more?

My question: What did Jesus sacrifice?

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Henry wrote:



My answer concerning the choice to endure suffering and/or death would include other possibilities like being forced and over powered; social/religious pressure (like I described in my Q. what if Jesus was only human?), and in cases like a man throwing himself on a grenade or a mother choosing to suffer pain in childbirth rather than risk her unborn child's life, most likely an unselfish devotion to others' welfare.

Heidi, although you are free to answer any post you wish, your answer does not provide an answer for Stu, as much as he may wish it could.

I don't believe he has the guts to answer the questions posed here himself, but I am sure he appreciates all the help he can get from you...

Thanks,

Henry Franklin

P.S. to Stu, No, only one virgin.


I see that you are not one to answer questions posed to you, when they are challenged to the point of explanation. I have given you more than an opportunity, and I am satisfied that you are unable to give what you request: answers.

Thanks for proving me right, Stu. This will be thread I am saving. I am through with this thread, as it has proven my point. You may kick and scream now, but the proof is in the above posts.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by HenryBowman

Is submitting to being beaten a sacrifice? Yes or No.

Is submitting to being killed a sacrifice? Yes or No.

Is submitting to wearing a crown of thorns a sacrifice? Yes or No.

Is submitting to being crucified a sacrifice? Yes or No.

Is submitting to any type of suffering a sacrifice (when it can be avoided)? Yes or No.

Is submitting to sentence of death when no wrong has been done a sacrifice? Yes or No.


By submitting, I mean willingly allowing it to happen.

Thanks

HenryFranklin

I can answer yes to all of your questions. Jesus was one of many myrters at that time. He just happend to have been the one to win the messiah lottery
with his very own religion.