Romans 13:1-5

gregtu · #1 09-06-2005, 05:37 AM

(1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

charlesa6 · #2 09-06-2005, 05:52 AM

Thanks again gregtu.

scottinalaska · #3 09-06-2005, 01:08 PM

Well Greg, you started it!

I have wanted to discuss this passage with the group. Actually, more often, well intentioned Christians "whack" me with that chapter. They do this when chiding my behavior that just doesn't happen to embrace the local cop, judge, or other appointed/elected "authority" lording over me. THEN they think the discussion is over. Ah, presumptions again!
Most Bible readers presume that "all authority" means George Bush, Officer O'Malley, and Judge Wilkerson. But don't they fret when you ask if Saddam and Hitler might be one of the ALL authority or higher powers Paul refers to?
The faulty reasoning continues to crumble when they usually respond with, "Well, only God appointed rulers." Gads! That is so unBiblical. God appointed other nation's rulers to capture Isreal, and really now, WHO gets to say God appointed George or Officer O'Malley? If I lived in Iraq, would Saddam be my man?

Here is the only take I can make sense out of. Paul is referring to rulers in the church. Chapter 12(previous chapter), spoke about the Body. Why should ch13 all of a sudden start talking about Ceaser?
If Christian leaders within the body are appointed by God, and we are doing good, of course we shouldn't fear. Does anyone fear when the redlights are on behind your car? Sure! Is it because it he is a minister of God coming to minister to you? Hell no. He does not bear the Sword(God's word). He bears a gun and has intentions of establishing an order of things. If you don't pledge your allegiance to him and his establishment, then prepare to pay in ways the Bible has prophesied.
Paul later tells the believers in Rome to pay tribute to their leaders. Hello? Support your leaders in the church. He uses the words they are familiar with. The word "tithe" may not have had the obligatory impact as "tribute" or "tax".

Let's work out the presumption that Paul is telling fellow believers of "the Way" to obey Ceaser. Do you think Ceaser would put to death someone advocating following Ceaser's way? No, of course not. Would Ceaser not have embraced one of the leaders of "the Way" who was advocating taxes? No, Ceaser felt threatened. Ceaser took care of Paul...with a sword to his neck.
Well, there is a little different take on it. All chime in if this has been enlightening or irritating or I am in gross error.
scottinalaska

weishaupt1776 · #4 09-06-2005, 03:34 PM

This is probably the best 4 part series explaining Romans 13

Livefire · #5 09-06-2005, 07:53 PM

Dont get me started on tithing you ...you...Floridian you! ;)

SansRecours · #6 09-20-2005, 10:11 PM

I used to believe that romans 13 only went to verse 5, but it bothers my conscience that in EVERY case when one interfaces with the powers that be, someone purporting to represent the powers that be, is going to bear false witness (penalty of perjury) for which I will have no civil remedy (qualified immunity) so that the thief may steal for which I will have no civil remedy (absolute immunity).

weishaupt1776 · #7 09-21-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livefire

Dont get me started on tithing you ...you...Floridian you! ;)

I want 10% 10% !!!!!!! Oh - whoops . . . . I mean God wants 10%, 10% !!!

Plus an offering

I love the mythos surrounding the tithing fraud

The churches will tell you that your first fruits is your gross paycheck and that the tithe is based off that not off of your net.

But at the same time they'll quote verse for giving God the firstfruits, while the IRS and other socialistic meddlesome agencies are getting the firstfruits!!!

Then there's the building fund . . . .