This is for Buck09

[iamfreeru2]

Please show me where the majority of modern science is doing it YHWH's way or even believes YHWH. Most science believes in evolution and pushes YHWH out of the equation. Science is part of the problem unless that science is based upon the word of YHWH. Most comes from Satan himself. If that is your idea of blessing you are sadly mistaken.

I do not need to show you in Scripture where YHWH says not to tamper with His creation. The whole Bible speaks of the sin of mankind and what it does to Hie creation. It is because of disobedience and the sins of the world that there is so much wrong today and is getting worse. Sin is rampant and is increasing, not decreasing.

Now I did incorrectly state that YHWH did not intend for people to drink milk. I still believe it is not good to drink cow's milk and there is much evidence of the fact that it is dangerous to do so. I will reiterate that science is showing this more and more everyday.

Originally Posted by Buck09

The simple fact is that Christ's kingdom is *advancing* in this world and we are reaping the benefits of it, through modern medicine. Christ's kingdom marches on - don't get "left behind" ;-)

This is the lie that Satan is furthering. Please show me in Scripture where this is said to be true. I would love to see it. If it is not based upon His word it is a lie, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by iamfreeru2

Please show me where the majority of modern science is doing it YHWH's way or even believes YHWH.

Before I can even begin to do that, perhaps you could give me some sort of clue what you think "doing it YHWH's way" would even be??

Most science believes in evolution and pushes YHWH out of the equation.

Aside from being a total non-sequitur, this isn't true. In fact, it's exactly the opposite. First of all, let's get a little more specific about "science". When I say something is scientifically proven, I'm referring to facts established through repeated tests, double-blind methodology, etc. Evolution, buy the strict definition isn't scientifically proven. Therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, evolution is off the radar.

Furthermore, scientists are dealing with God's creation. They are using mental faculties given by God to discover the depths and wonders of his creation. To whatever extent a scientists actually believes in God or not is mostly irrelevant. It's just like the atheist who says that through the use of pure reason, he decides God doesn't exist. Well guess what - without a transcendent God, the atheist is unable to "reason" in the first place. Scientists, like atheists are relying on borrowed capital, so to speak. It's all a part of God's work of common grace in this world.

Science is part of the problem unless that science is based upon the word of YHWH. Most comes from Satan himself. If that is your idea of blessing you are sadly mistaken.

Modern science - with the medicines that cure smallpox, reduce or eliminate cancerous masses, lower fevers a whole bunch of other things are biblical. It's inherent in the creation mandate from the Garden of Eden. By God's grace, men (often working on borrowed the intellectual capital form a creator they refuse to acknowledge) subdue creation and *roll back* the effects of the curse. Even the pain and death associated with childbirth has been rolled back. Satan doesnt want this to happen, but he has NO SAY in the matter before a sovereign God to directs ALL THINGS.

Furthermore, you seem to be creating artificial categories in your mind as to what is "natural" and what is not. This is intellectually and biblically indefensible, as it's an unfortunate effect that platonic thinking has had upon men. Such distinctions are totally the creation of your own subjective mind and cannot be defined in the light of scripture.

I do not need to show you in Scripture where YHWH says not to tamper with His creation.

What a cop-out. I what you call "tampering" I call "bringing into submission" as a part of the creation mandate. I don't expect you to try to define and show "tampering" in the light of scripture because you cannot.

It is because of disobedience and the sins of the world that there is so much wrong today and is getting worse. Sin is rampant and is increasing, not decreasing.

This is simply a refusal to see the obvious expansion of the church upon the earth and the redeeming effects associated with it. In your worldview, God sits helpless while his creation gets worse and worse. Finally he decides to destroy it all, pulling the redeemed out just in the nick of time. In mine, he sends his redeeming son to redeem the hearts of men, establishing his kingdom, against which Satan has no power.

It's clear that a pessimistic theology yields pessimistic thinking.

Now I did incorrectly state that YHWH did not intend for people to drink milk. I still believe it is not good to drink cow's milk and there is much evidence of the fact that it is dangerous to do so. I will reiterate that science is showing this more and more everyday.

I can't believe I have to keep reminding you of what you said:

If we were intended to drink cow's milk YHWH would not have given women breasts with milk in them.

The logical conclusion of your statement is that YHWH didn't intend for us to drink milk. Your problem here again lies in your use of the word "intend". I don't think you're well versed in theology proper, otherwise you would understand that all things God "intends" come to pass as a result of his immutable will. Therefore if God didn't intend for us to drink milk, he wouldn't let us, or he would make it poison or just taste really, really bad. He did not - in fact, He associates it with one of the richest blessings - over and over - the land of MILK and honey. Go ahead and keep ignoring that God gave it as a BLESSING, since it doesnt fit into your argument.

I don't disagree, however, that too much of a good thing can be bad for you - neither does God.

One other thing - and I say this in all seriousness - please take the time to read this book - the Sovereignty of God by Aurthur Pink:

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/

Fortunately the copyright on the oirginal edition is expired, so it can be published freely.

After reading it, I would be curious to know what you think.

[weishaupt1776]

Thanks for the link, looks like a must read

[iamfreeru2]

Buck09,

Please see my responses below.

Originally Posted by buck09

Before I can even begin to do that, perhaps you could give me some sort of clue what you think "doing it YHWH's way" would even be??



Aside from being a total non-sequitur, this isn't true. In fact, it's exactly the opposite. First of all, let's get a little more specific about "science". When I say something is scientifically proven, I'm referring to facts established through repeated tests, double-blind methodology, etc. Evolution, buy the strict definition isn't scientifically proven. I agree with what you said here.Therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, evolution is off the radar.There are too many scientists that believe in evolution and are being shown with science that the Bible is correct. This is the main reason I said what I said.

Furthermore, scientists are dealing with God's creation. True. No disagreement from me on this. They are using mental faculties given by God to discover the depths and wonders of his creation. To whatever extent a scientists actually believes in God or not is mostly irrelevant. It's just like the atheist who says that through the use of pure reason, he decides God doesn't exist. Well guess what - without a transcendent God, the atheist is unable to "reason" in the first place. Again no argument from meScientists, like atheists are relying on borrowed capital, so to speak. This is also trueIt's all a part of God's work of common grace in this world.



Modern science - with the medicines that cure smallpox, reduce or eliminate cancerous masses, lower fevers a whole bunch of other things are biblical. This is where we part company. YHWH gave us natural remedies to heal our bodies, not un-natural synthetic drugs. This is proven out by the many side effects and deaths as a result. I know what these drugs do because I am a cancer survivor and have had friends die from the drugs (chemo), not the cancer. You will never convince me that YHWH wants us putting these synthetics in His temple when he provides everything we need to keep us healthy. It is our disobedience again that has caused all of our problems. When we do not listen to Him and obey his statutes we suffer the consequences. It's inherent in the creation mandate from the Garden of Eden. By God's grace, men (often working on borrowed the intellectual capital form a creator they refuse to acknowledge) subdue creation and *roll back* the effects of the curse. The problem is mankind is not rolling back the effects of the curse. Again I will restate that sin is not decreasing in the world it is increasing. In fact we are told to live in the world but not to be a part of the world. Also 1 John 2:15 "Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." Even the pain and death associated with childbirth has been rolled back. Satan doesnt want this to happen, but he has NO SAY in the matter before a sovereign God to directs ALL THINGS.

Furthermore, you seem to be creating artificial categories in your mind as to what is "natural" and what is not. This is intellectually and biblically indefensible, as it's an unfortunate effect that platonic thinking has had upon men. Such distinctions are totally the creation of your own subjective mind and cannot be defined in the light of scripture.This does not deserve an answer



What a cop-out. I what you call "tampering" I call "bringing into submission" as a part of the creation mandate. I don't expect you to try to define and show "tampering" in the light of scripture because you cannot.When we destroy what YHWH has created that is tampering any way you slice it. That is not what I call bringing into submission.



This is simply a refusal to see the obvious expansion of the church upon the earth and the redeeming effects associated with it. In your worldview, God sits helpless while his creation gets worse and worse. Now that is putting words in my mouth. YHWH desire we come to Him. He is not going to force us to do this. It is us that are the problem and not YHWH. YHWH can do as He pleases without any help from any of us. The Scripture is clear that no one is righteouse not even one (Romans 3:10-18). As sinners we do not have the ability to go to YHWH, without Him first calling us to Himself.Finally he decides to destroy it all, pulling the redeemed out just in the nick of time. In mine, he sends his redeeming son to redeem the hearts of men, establishing his kingdom, against which Satan has no power.I may be inferring something from your statements that may not be true, so I will ask. Do you believe in a literal heaven and hell? I will wait till you answer this question before I respond further.

It's clear that a pessimistic theology yields pessimistic thinking. I know where I am headed and am excited and have the assurance from YHWH's word. I am only pessimistic when it comes to the world.



I can't believe I have to keep reminding you of what you said: Like I said, I was incorrect in what I initially said, but I still believe cow's milk is not good for people to drink based on what is taking place in the world today.


The logical conclusion of your statement is that YHWH didn't intend for us to drink milk. And again I will state I was incorrect regarding my initial statement.Your problem here again lies in your use of the word "intend". I don't think you're well versed in theology proper, otherwise you would understand that all things God "intends" come to pass as a result of his immutable will. [b]He allows thing to take place, this is true, even the bad. But just as Romans 8:28 says: "And we know that YHWH causes all thing to work together for good to those who love YHWH, to those that all called according to His purpose." Therefore if God didn't intend for us to drink milk, he wouldn't let us, or he would make it poison or just taste really, really bad. Not true. He allows us to do many things we should not do. We reap the cosequences from our actions. He did not - in fact, He associates it with one of the richest blessings - over and over - the land of MILK and honey. Go ahead and keep ignoring that God gave it as a BLESSING, since it doesnt fit into your argument. YHWH has allowed man to turn many blessings into curses if you will. It is a result of our disobedience that these things happen. Does that mean that YHWH is not on His throne or has no control? NO. It simply means He is allowing it to happen.

I don't disagree, however, that too much of a good thing can be bad for you - neither does God.

[iamfreeru2]

Originally Posted by buck09

One other thing - and I say this in all seriousness - please take the time to read this book - the Sovereignty of God by Aurthur Pink:

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/

Fortunately the copyright on the oirginal edition is expired, so it can be published freely.

After reading it, I would be curious to know what you think.

I will read it, but I must say the only authority I recognize is the word of YHWH, the Bible. I will let you know what I think about it. Peace.

[BoyntonStu]

Originally Posted by iamfreeru2

I will read it, but I must say the only authority I recognize is the word of YHWH, the Bible. .

Which VERSION?

stU

[iamfreeru2]

Originally Posted by BoyntonStu

Which VERSION?

stU

Which one do you recommend?

Originally Posted by iamfreeru2

Which one do you recommend?

Stu's trolling.

Thanks for your responses - let's focus the discussion a little more, since we seem to agree on theology (mostly).

To answer your direct question, yes, I believe in a literal heaven and hell. God sends those he doesn't elect to hell and those he does to heaven. Both acts - condemnation and redemption glorify him and him alone.

It seems to me that you have an arbitrary line between things that are "natural" and things that are "synthetic". You seem to put things that are "natural" into the realm of what God created as good, and the "synthetic" into the realm of what man makes and is therefore, evil.

Tell me which of these things are natural and which ones are synthetic:
- Apples
- Sharks
- Diamonds
- Influenza Virus
- Fudge (your choice of recipe)
- Tea
- Vodka
- Penicillin
- White Roses
- Plastic
- Bacteria
- Gasoline
- Aspirin
- Plutonium