Christianity - smoke and more smoke

[BoyntonStu]

Mention the dying/undying/sacrifice of Jesus and the reactions are like smoke.

It was physical, it was spiritual, no it was physical, Oh the suffering, the lashes, but it wasn't the lashes, it was carrying the sin in a spiritual way, sacrifices were specified to be unblemished in Leviticus, but Jesus was circumcized and blemished, no, it didn't mean human sacrifices, but what was the sacrifice, he was alive and healed within 36 hours, it was spiritual, he suffered for a lot of hours, but how could God suffer, did his foreskin become resurrected, it was spiritual,,,,,,,....

smoke, smoke, and smoke.


stU

Let me remind you that you, Stu are the one who cannot defend your positions.

Bob

It's a terrible thing that any human being was ever subjected to a "kangaroo court", hideously tortured and then murdered because of religious zealotry.

The entire history of such behavior on the part of religious zealots who victimized and killed innocent beings, (whether unblemished or not) is awful. Countless lambs, goats, doves, chickens, calves, bulls, cats, dogs, and even children have been brutalized because of organized religion. I believe it is important to "tell it like it is" ... in unvarnished terms... so that people can really grasp the nature of what they are asked to believe. For centuries people have attended religious services and sung pretty songs and given to worthwhile charities, without ever taking a good hard look at the religious practices that they are really being asked to support.

Many of us who have awakened to the cruel and bloody background of traditional judeo/christianity have sought and formed other fellowships where we can draw close to our Creator and invite Divine guidance without embracing ancient doctrines of blood sacrifice.

I believe in the Divine Mind, and I believe in the power of prayer. I pray that mankind will evolve intellectually and spiritually beyond such horrible beliefs and practices... and recognize that we are all creations of the Divine Mind of God, and that we are all born innocent and with unlimited potential and free will.

There is a Power in the Universe that honors our faith in It; there is a Law in the Universe which exacts the “uttermost farthing”. We all wish to feel that the power behind everything is good, as well as creative, an Eternal and Changeless Intelligence, in which man lives and moves and has his being. Intuitively, we sense that every man, in his native state, is some part or manifestation of this Eternal Principle; and that the entire problem of limitation, evil, suffering and uncertainty is not God-ordained, but is the result of ignorance. It has been written that the Truth shall make us free, provided we know the Truth, and we note that the evolution of man’s consciousness brings with it the acquisition of new powers and higher possibilities.

-- Ernest Holmes, “The Thing Itself” from the introduction to The Science of Mind

[wisper]

Originally Posted by Heidi

I believe in the Divine Mind, and I believe in the power of prayer. I pray that mankind will evolve intellectually and spiritually [i

beyond[/i] such horrible beliefs and practices... and recognize that we are all creations of the Divine Mind of God, and that we are all born innocent and with unlimited potential and free will.

An application to a higher authority, as for sanction or a decision: appeal, petition.

I selected this definition from answeres.com. I can't conceive of a divine mind as an entity. Then you ,"state the divine mind of God". Can you give any better explanation of this *higher power* concept? Are you leaning towards the UN concept of Gaia (earth mother). If so, do you really think that she is sitting somewhere as *mother nature* listening to prayers? I would feel that she is as deaf as all the other gods, based on what goes on in nature. In one of the books I mentioned (the Lucifer Principle, by Howard Bloom) the suject of Gaia is explored. Bloom's summary based on studies and evidence he goes into rather deeply, is that Mother Nature is a Bitch!
The animals have to bear it according to Ayn Rand and Bloom, in creation or evolution (which ever one prefers), reality exists, and in reality, only conscious man has any chance against nature.
No disrespect intended here, merely that since I agree with so often on what you have to say, I am always open to learn, albeit I believe not, in any higher power.

No disrespect taken, Wisper. I respect your opinion and I respect the tenor of this discussion.

Naturally, my beliefs in a "Divine Mind" are a personal compilation of my own life's experiences ... but they are more influenced now by my personal experiences than by any established religion. I relate to Ernest Holmes' "Science of Mind" because I find that it strikes the right balance between science and the metaphysical. I have had metaphysical experiences; psychic experiences that are unexplained and unexplainable other than by accepting the idea that I can connect (and often have) with a universal "intelligence".

There is also the amazing synchronicity of the universe that allows for the development of life (see www.reasons.org - as I've mentioned, I disagree with Dr. Hugh Ross about the Bible actually being inspired by God, and I do think he stretches that point ... but he does catalogue and demonstrate details about the universe which seem much to specific and amazing to be accidental... fascinating)

Also... there are actually secular scientific studies proving that prayer "works"... even when the recipient of the prayer has not been informed that he/she is being prayed about. This is consistent with the concept that our own consciousness is actually part of a universal consciousness or "Mind" that permeates the universe.

There seems to be far more evidence in favor of reincarnation and the eternal nature of the "soul" than there is for one earthly life ending in physical death (and/or followed by some kind of eternal life that is based upon religious beliefs). There are documented cases of children remembering past lives in great detail, and taking their parents to the location of their past life. Ian Stevenson has spent decades of his life studying this and other phenomenon suggestive of the survival of an eternal consciousness:

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...nalitystudies/

I've read quite a bit about "near death experiences" and I know someone intimately who has had such an experience. Meanwhile, I have had many "leadings" and specific instances of guidance from "somewhere out there" which I can only explain or comprehend as the "Mind" of which Ernest Holmes speaks... the intelligence that permeates everything in the universe.

The film "What the Bleep Do We Know" deals with this in a very palatable and entertaining manner. Have you seen it? The experiments by the Japanese scientist Masaru Emoto which demonstrate that THOUGHTS actually affect the arrangement of the molecules in water are especially interesting:

The Hidden Messages in Water:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...91800?v=glance

Book Description
The Hidden Messages in Water is an eye-opening theory showing how water is deeply connected to people's individual and collective consciousness. Drawing from his own research, scientific researcher, healer, and popular lecturer Dr. Masaru Emoto describes the ability of water to absorb, hold, and even retransmit human feelings and emotions. Using high-speed photography, he found that crystals formed in frozen water reveal changes when specific, concentrated thoughts are directed toward it. Music, visual images, words written on paper, and photographs also have an impact on the crystal structure. Emoto theorizes that since water has the ability to receive a wide range of frequencies, it can also reflect the universe in this manner. He found that water from clear springs and water exposed to loving words shows brilliant, complex, and colorful snowflake patterns, while polluted water and water exposed to negative thoughts forms incomplete, asymmetrical patterns with dull colors. Emoto believes that since people are 70 percent water, and the Earth is 70 percent water, we can heal our planet and ourselves by consciously expressing love and goodwill.

I am personally convinced that our thoughts and our Souls and our minds are part of the universal Mind - call it God, call it Divine Mind, call it Universal Intelligence - that is behind the amazing organization of this universe.

I believe that everything in the universe is a manifestation of this Mind and is therefore an aspect of this Mind... including you and I. This is the reason behind the success of "positive thinking". Many successful people have learned that when they "envision" their desires, circumstances come into play and cooperate to bring them what they have envisioned. Thoughts are "things" in that thoughts have real substance (although invisible to our 5 ordinary senses) and actually affect the universe. This is why I believe that the culture of death and blood sacrifice espoused by organized religion has actually resulted in more overall judgmentalism, war, and death than it has love and healing.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Naturally, my beliefs in a "Divine Mind" are a personal compilation of my own life's experiences ... but they are more influenced now by my personal experiences than by any established religion. I relate to Ernest Holmes' "Science of Mind" because I find that it strikes the right balance between science and the metaphysical. I have had metaphysical experiences; psychic experiences that are unexplained and unexplainable other than by accepting the idea that I can connect (and often have) with a universal "intelligence".

This "Divine Mind" obviously has MPD or is bipolar.

Bob

[BoyntonStu]

"I am personally convinced that our thoughts and our Souls and our minds are part of the universal Mind - call it God, call it Divine Mind, call it Universal Intelligence - that is behind the amazing organization of this universe."


Consider our galaxy spiraling into a Black Hole. everything goes kaput. EVERYTHING we see and know about shrinks down to a size less than the period at the end of this sentence. How organized is that? What intelligence is required to produce a Black Hole?

Beauty is in the eye and in the perspective of the beholder.

Perfect skin is quite imperfect microscopically. Everything is mostly space at the atomic level and we are all mostly empty.


If you accept a Divine Mind and also accept the notion that everything must begin somewhere; where did the Divine Mind begin? It always was?

Than why didn't matter always exist?


stU

It all comes down to words and what we THINK they mean.

This "Divine Mind" obviously has MPD or is bipolar.

Bob

OBVIOUSLY has Multiple Personality Disorder or is bipolar? Yuk yuk yuk... tell me, Bob, why do you think that's either clever or funny? (You're the Christian who puts down StU for questioning Christianity, right?)

StU wrote:

Consider our galaxy spiraling into a Black Hole. everything goes kaput. EVERYTHING we see and know about shrinks down to a size less than the period at the end of this sentence. How organized is that? What intelligence is required to produce a Black Hole?

The last time I watched a program about black holes, there was a great deal of speculation about what happens to everything... especially because the results cannot be "seen". I think they're making educated guesses... which I find interesting... but guesses nevertheless.

It still seems to me that matter is neither created nor destroyed. But more importantly, if our consciousness is actually independant of "matter", and actually exists in the spaces between atomic particles, our consciousness is never destroyed, regardless of what happens to physical matter. If this is the case, we have been reincarnating throughout the universe. Several books have been written by certified hypnotherapists detailing responses under hypnosis in which people have reported memories of past lives as well as "life between lives" experiences. (Hey... if people can believe in talking snakes and beasts with 10 horns and the sun stopping in the middle of the sky, why does having an eternal consciousness and the capability of reincarnation seem so unbelievable? ;) ) After liberating myself from the constraints of organized religion, I've felt free to explore other ideologies and read about experiments that reveal indications of the survival of consciousness after death.

Beauty is in the eye and in the perspective of the beholder.

ABSOLUTELY. The interesting thing is to read about the experiments showing that one's attitude affects one's life in myriad ways... so the "eye of the beholder" can impact your present and future significantly. Laws of Karma, or "you reap what you sew", are proving to be the cosmic truth.

Perfect skin is quite imperfect microscopically. Everything is mostly space at the atomic level and we are all mostly empty.

I agree that we are mostly comprised of "space", but I disagree that it is "empty". It appears to be occupied by the intelligence behind the universe.

If you accept a Divine Mind and also accept the notion that everything must begin somewhere; where did the Divine Mind begin? It always was?

We don't seem to be able to accept the "always was" concept... it's simply beyond our comprehension... but since we cannot fathom the beginning of the universe, or the beginning of a Universal Intelligence, we tie ourselves up in knots intellectually. There is so much organization behind the universe, and behind every structure in the universe that many of us do not believe that this could have developed by accident.

I caught the tail end of a program about 'string theory' a few weeks ago. They described an experiment in which a pair of atomic particles (I forget if they are atoms or electrons or what... sorry) which always carry opposite polarity. They were forcibly separated by a large distance. Scientists then reversed the polarity of one of the particles while other scientists watched the polarity of the other particle. The second particle reversed its polarity the instant that the polarity of the first particle was reversed. Thus the pair of atomic particles maintained their reverse polarity relative to each other regardless of distance. What was the mode of communication between the two of them??? AMAZING! Whatever it was/is, it is unencumbered by time and space!!!

Than why didn't matter always exist?

All indications are that matter has always existed in some form. However, if our actual "identity" is an eternal 'consciousness' which is actually one part of an all encompassing universal mind that is connecting with everything in the universe, our existence is not dependent upon the form that is taken by "matter" at all. Perhaps we do not need to fear the eventual disappearance of matter into a black hole because our consciousness is never actually destroyed along with any destruction, alteration, or reformation of "matter".

IF reincarnation is true, then death and rebirth are merely a continuum ... and suffering and physiological death are merely experiences which add to our process of spiritual growth. This makes far more sense than any dogma which limits eternal life to only those individuals who except a particular religious creed.

This "Divine Mind" obviously has MPD or is bipolar.

Bob

Oh... now I get it. You think that my receptivity to intuition and inner guidance from the universal Mind would indicate multiple personality disorder or bipolarity. Hmmmmm. Well then ... wouldn't you also consider the father (Abraham), who claimed to have heard God's voice telling him to kill his son (Isaac), a schizophrenic? Or at the very least sociopathic? I think bipolar would be a euphemism. ;) This guy also claimed to hear a voice coming from a burning bush. (I guess it wasn't dubya)

[BoyntonStu]

<But more importantly, *if* our consciousness is actually independant of "matter", and actually exists in the spaces between atomic particles, our consciousness is never destroyed, regardless of what happens to physical matter. >


That is one big "IF".

If pigs had wings they could fly.

It is your imagination that fills the voids. Consiousness cannot be measured, weighed, etc. When a music cassette tape is burned, is the music destroyed? If your brain is destroyed, aren't your memories gone too?

Why should there be any difference between DNA cells and magnetic iron oxide orientation particles from a cassette?

>It appears to be occupied by the intelligence behind the universe.<

Appears? To whom? How does it appear? Behind the universe? Is that like behind a billboard?



It is good to discuss these cosmological ideas, but it may take a few billion lifetimes to complete the thread.

stU