Anti-christ

[iamfreeru2]

I know I said my last post would be my last post, but had to respond to this. I will try to make this my last post.

I will repeat myself. There have been no contradictions that have been shown on this board or anywhere else regarding Scripture. What someone else believes to be a contradicton is no contradiction at all. It is merely a lack of right rendering of the Scriptures. Anyone can take anything from Scripture and put thier own meaning and spin on it. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise. Others have tried to do this since the Bible was written and it has never changed. YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever and His word is the same. I will not argue the point any longer, but will once again bid you peace.

[Akira]

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Interestingly enough, I tend to believe in prophecy because I have received guidance myself. Accurate guidance from the Universal Mind has actually been experienced by many people. I don't have to struggle to believe this because I have experienced it myself.

Wisdom from an old Harley t-shirt...

"If I have to explain....

You wouldn't understand"



For HIS Glory,
Akira

[weasel]

I haven't really been a part of this topic, so I'm not going to dive in now. But I have to comment on the link Heidi provided.

Heidi, I don't know if that resource you posted on the last page is where you get most of your ideas about the Bible, but I hope its not. I didn't read all the topics, but the ones I did were taken out of context and often written with willful ignorance. The author holds some odd misconceptions about the concept of consistency.
There were 1 or 2 quotes that I had never read before, I'll get back to this discussion in a day or so once I've had time to study them.

upward and onward

What someone else believes to be a contradicton is no contradiction at all.

No contradiction to you, that is... which is always a matter of personal opinion, and I respect and acknowledge that. I find contradictions and you do not - we each have an opinion and we happen to disagree.

It is merely a lack of right rendering of the Scriptures.

That is another matter of opinion, and you and I disagree. My observation is that there are countless opinions among denominations of Christianity and among individual Christians themselves about the correct interpretation of scriptures. I see it everywhere, and here on suijuris, too. IMHO this behavior is altogether human - not Divinely inspired at all... but that is only my opinion.

Anyone can take anything from Scripture and put thier own meaning and spin on it. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise. Others have tried to do this since the Bible was written and it has never changed.

I agree with that statement completely - except for the use of the word "others". I would have used the word "people". Of course, your choice of words is obviously completely up to you... but I am interested to know what you mean when you say "others". What "others"? The "others" who do not interpret scripture the way you do? The "others" who are not Christians?

Weasel wrote:

Heidi, I don't know if that resource you posted on the last page is where you get most of your ideas about the Bible, but I hope its not. I didn't read all the topics, but the ones I did were taken out of context and often written with willful ignorance. The author holds some odd misconceptions about the concept of consistency.

The Bible Skeptic website is not where I get most of my ideas about the Bible... my ideas are based on a number of experiences and sources and upon my own reading. But the "Bible Skeptic" does catalogue and correlate many of the reasons why skeptics in general do not believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. If anyone disagrees with him, they can explain why, just like he explains why he believes as he does.

I'm waiting to see ANYone explain away ANY of those inconsistencies that were pointed out on the Bible Skeptic website. So far the only response seems to be something to the tune of: "If you are inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit you will not find any inconsistencies or contradictions." (blunt translation: If you DO find contradictions, you must NOT be inspired by the Holy Spirit ... and if you are not inspired by the "Holy Spirit" you must not be a practicing Christian, and therefore you must not be saved, and we Christians can now consider you to be damned and headed straight for the "lake of fire". That doesn't quite hold up to reason. If you really are inspired by the Holy Spirit, I think you should be more than capable of explaining away any contradictions. In fact, I believe that according to your own beliefs, the Holy Spirit would expect you to do so.

Explain why these contradictions only SEEM to be contradictions to the rest of us. Enlighten us with the help of God. Or is the Bible some sort of "code" that is only broken by the Holy Spirit for you believers? What about your Biblical "commission" to convert everyone in the world? How can you possibly do that without being able to explain the scriptures?

Much of the world does not believe you, BTW (including millions of Muslims, Buddists, Jews and Native Americans - to name a few - and they all have their own version of "god" and their own holy books that I presume they believe only they can understand, right?). That lake of fire must be pretty full already!!! Where does all that displaced liguid fire go, anyway? Or does this lake of fire just infinitely expand to accommodate all of the new arrivals that are falling in each and every hour of each and every day and night?

BTW any quote from the Bible is always "out of context" because one has not quoted the entire Bible. Even quoting an entire chapter is "out of context" because it is only a portion of the whole. No one can even engage in a discussion of scripture if one cannot quote "out of context". If someone disagrees with an interpretation they can always back up their own opinion with their own interpretation of the context if so desired.

I think that this - "you just don't understand because you aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit" - argument is just a very convenient escape valve. It's just a soft-pedaled variety of the old "argument from intimidation" tactic of using blatant insults against someone who disagrees with you. But instead of insulting them directly by using simple-minded personal invective and ugly language, you use this more surruptitious approach... implying that anyone who disagrees with you about the Bible is not in touch with your special interpreter the Holy Spirit and is just some unsaved sinner going straight to hell. It's all between the lines.

[iamfreeru2]

Heidi, the Scripture is witness of itself. The Bible says one cannot not understand without the Spirit of Truth or the Holy Spirit. I have quoted verses that support this teaching. These are not my words. They come from Scripture. I just happen to believe what Scripture says.

When it is said that passages are taken out of context, it simply means the passage is being used to put a meaning to it that was never intended by the writer. This has happened since the Bible was first written. Because YHWH's word is impossible to be corrupted or changed it has remained the same from the beginning.

Now I could take weeks and answer all of the so-called contradictions on the web site you posted, but I am not here to get into a debate about some misinterpreted and misapplied Scripture because someone does not understand. This is exactly what the enemy (Satan) wants to happen. He would love for us to get off on these tangents when there are many lost souls that need to hear the gospel.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

That is another matter of opinion, and you and I disagree. My observation is that there are countless opinions among denominations of Christianity and among individual Christians themselves about the correct interpretation of scriptures. I see it everywhere, and here on suijuris, too. IMHO this behavior is altogether human - not Divinely inspired at all... but that is only my opinion.

This is exactly the problem Heidi. Not all have the truth because there can only be one truth and not many. As long as the doctrine of a church is based upon the gospel of Yeshua the Christ and that is the cornerstone of a churches teachings, then the little disagreements are meaningless. When people believe they can live a good life, do good deads etc., and enter heaven the Bible does not support this view.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

I agree with that statement completely - except for the use of the word "others". I would have used the word "people". Of course, your choice of words is obviously completely up to you... but I am interested to know what you mean when you say "others". What "others"? The "others" who do not interpret scripture the way you do? The "others" who are not Christians?

"Others" refers to those that do not take YHWH at His word. Tell me Heidi, how do you know your way is correct? Do you believe without shadow of doubt you know where you are headed when you die? Are you absolutely sure there is no hell? Why? You believe that all are born innocent (sinless). I know you do not believe what the Bible says but take a look at 1 John 1: 8-10. Are you absolutely sure and if so what is your belief based upon? Is it something you read or is it something you hope is true or what? If you were to die today, in your personal opinion what do you believe it takes for a person to have eternal life? Do you believe in eternal life? If so where will you spend it? Do you believe what you believe without any doubt? You have said you do not believe in heaven, but are leaning toward reincarnation. Upon what or who do you base this belief?

Heidi, There are many questions you need to ask yourself. I hope you have all the answers and they are the correct ones. Sounds like a confusing mess to me. Is YHWH the author of confusion or is Satan? Since there is but one truth Heidi, are you sure yours is that truth? I only ask these questions so that you will think about what you believe and why you believe it. Are you convicted by it or is it just wishful thinking or hoping you are correct? What is it that you base your beliefs upon? Is it feelings or what?

Looks like I am being led to continue in this thread.

To answer your question about what I believe, I must first reiterate what I do not believe.

I do not believe that any divine intelligence inspired the numerous men who wrote the Bible. I believe that human beings write books … not gods. This belief is based upon a lifetime of observation and common sense.

When I read the Bible I do find ambiguities and contradictions. Such errors are human. I see no reason whatsoever to believe what the Bible says about being inspired by god. The men who wrote it obviously wanted to be considered god’s messengers, so they wrote that they were. I do not believe them. I do not take their word for it. In order to believe that the Bible is god’s word you have to take the word of the men who actually wrote the Bible. I’m sorry, but I believe that those men were either dishonest, or deluded.

There are several stories in the Bible which are unbelievable. If it weren’t for the fact that they appear in the Bible, I doubt if you would believe them either. You believe that the Holy Spirit is inspiring you to believe everything you read in the Bible, so you accept stories about talking snakes or the sun stopping in the sky. I believe that’s known as “blind faith”. I respect your right to have blind faith in the Bible.

Now, as to what I believe. I believe we are eternal souls who reincarnate in order to experience spiritual growth. As far back as I can remember I have always felt like “the ghost in the machine” – that my physical body was not my entire being. I do not believe that my consciousness ends with physical death.

I have had psychic experiences from time to time. I am not entirely in command of these experiences. Sometimes they happen and sometimes they don’t. I often ask for guidance, and I often receive it, but not every single time. I have been forewarned about things. I have been led to things. I have received visions of things which have come to pass in my life. Not huge global things that affect the rest of the world… just things that affect my own life. I’m not sure who helps me, but the help is very real.

Therefore, when I first started reading books by Dr Michael Newton and Dr Gary Weiss about people who have remembered past lives while they’re under hypnosis, I was open-minded about the information. The more I have read research by doctors Elizabeth Kubler Ross and Raymond Moody about near-death experiences the more I believe that our consciousness does not evaporate when our bodies pass away. The more I read Dr Ian Stevenson’s research about people – mostly children – who have remembered past lives, the more believable I find the whole concept of reincarnation. There are present day doctors and scientists who are actively looking into evidence of reincarnation. Yes, I do find their studies believable.

Generally speaking the Eastern religions do believe in reincarnation, and because their children are not raised to disbelieve they openly report their memories of past lives in much greater numbers than European or American children who have been raised in the Judeo Christian tradition (which does not accept such beliefs). It seems apparent that when children are uninhibited and are not afraid of being considered crazy, many more of them openly share memories of past lives with their parents and the other adults with whom they come into contact, including these research scientists and doctors who have made it their life’s work to study these cases.

I believe that anything we would call evil behavior by human beings is perpetrated by unenlightened, immature souls who have not learned enough karmic lessons or experienced enough karmic retribution as yet to mature beyond such behavior. It makes great sense to me that we would live through many many lives before becoming truly enlightened souls. Many people have reported under hypnosis that when they are in between reincarnations they experience a past life review during which their spiritual teachers help them to evaluate their behavior and the lessons they’ve learned. This takes place before the next decision to reincarnate again. Dr. Michael Newton has written several books about his experiences as a licensed hypnotherapist and the astounding past life and “life between life” memories that his patients have described to him while under hypnosis. What has amazed him is the surprising consistency of these memories from patient to patient. I don’t believe this is a coincidence.

Organized religion does not allow for such open minded experimentation because new discoveries frequently conflict with religious ideology. Hence, we get the type of religious persecution that happened with the Scopes monkey trial. Evolution may be only a theory… and a theory with some huge gaps in it at that… but I believe that in our quest for knowledge and discovery we should never allow religious dogma to stand in our way. At the same time we should not allow scientific discoveries or current theories to become dogma. We were obviously created with these amazing brains and we should use them for the good of ourselves and for the good of mankind and for the good of our fellow creatures and for the good of this planet… eventually for the good of the whole universe.

But that is just my own humble opinion… and you asked for it!!!

*

[iamfreeru2]

In other words Heidi, you believe what others tell you based on their research, not yours and your own feelings based on what you have personally experienced. Is your experiences and feelings based in truth? If so what truth? Can you trust your feelings and what you have experienced? How do you know that your claimed experience and the claimed experience of others is based on truth? Is it something you have proof of and can you provide that proof? Sounds to me you are basing your belief on nothing more than blind faith. No one has proven reincarnation is the truth. 2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an agel of light." Verse 15 "Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds." Are you absolutely positive you are not being decieved by a so-called agel of light? Think about that.

In other words Heidi, you believe what others tell you based on their research, not yours and your own feelings based on what you have personally experienced.

That's correct. Why should I believe the Bible instead? The Bible consists of ancient writings by people who claim to be inspired by god. Why should I believe them? Especially when much of what they wrote makes no sense, and seems irrational no matter how many times they try to translate it.

Those doctors and PhDs whose books I've read back up their data with names, witnesses and dates, etc. Their books are current, and these people are still alive. I find this far more convincing than an ancient translated and re-translated religious book written by people who understood nothing of modern science.

Basing my beliefs on my own personal experiences is the most verifiable source of all... at least to ME.

Is your experiences and feelings based in truth? If so what truth? Can you trust your feelings and what you have experienced? How do you know that your claimed experience and the claimed experience of others is based on truth? Is it something you have proof of and can you provide that proof?

The proof of my personal experiences is purely contextual - i.e. the leading or guidance turned out to be absolutely correct. Of course I believe it is true.

I presume you are trying to contrast that with what is written in the Bible, because you take every word in it as truth. So ask yourself the same questions you just asked me, only ask them about the Bible: "How do you know that your claimed experience (of being guided in your understanding by the Holy Spirit) and the claimed experience of others (as written in the Bible) is based on truth? Is it something you have proof of and can you provide that proof?

Sounds to me you are basing your belief on nothing more than blind faith.

My belief in the truth of my own experience is not blind faith. Blind faith is belief in things unproven and beyond one's own experience.

No one has proven reincarnation is the truth.

Many testimonials of past life experiences and near death experiences have been researched and well documented, which is much more than I can say for anything written in the Bible about resurrection or virgin birth. What proof do you have that Jesus was resurrected but the testimony of witnesses who claim to have seen him after his death on the cross? What proof do you have that an angel appeared to Mary or that Jesus was born of a virgin?

2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an agel of light." Verse 15 "Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds." Are you absolutely positive you are not being decieved by a so-called angel of light? Think about that.

Oh! There it is! I knew it would eventually come to this - the old "you must be influenced by Satan" argument. This kind of thing really ticks me off. Do you realize that you are indirectly (by implication) accusing all of those authors whose books I've been reading of being agents of the "devil"? Anyone who espouses any beliefs not recognized in the Bible is supposedly being influenced by Satan??? That is the same rationale that allowed early Christians to embark on the Holy Crusades, or conduct the Spanish Inquisition, or burn "witches" in Salem Mass. They could feel just fine about murdering thousands of innocent people because they could justify their behavior with Bible verses like 2 Corinthians 11:14 (above).

This kind of dogma foments prejudice, self-righteousness, and ultimately even sanctifies murder... even mass murder... and history has shown it several times over. I hope you think about that.

I believe with all my heart that it is MY sacred duty to point this out.

*

[iamfreeru2]

I do not go by experiences feelings. I go by what YHWH has written. I know you do not believe that to be true, but it has passed the test of time. It is unchangeable as YHWH is unchangeable. Many have tried to rewrite the Bible to fit their rationale. Most of those have come about in the 19th Century.

It is like being in love. Most people do not know what love is and is based on feelings. They fall in and out of it all the time. True love is a commitment like the commitment YHWH has for us. He loves us unconditionally no matter what. Does that mean we do not pay the negative consequences for our actions? Certainly NOT. Does that mean we are forgiven if we ask for it? Most certainly yes.

No I do not base my relationship with YHWH on feelings or experinces. My relationship with Him is based on His word and that He is true to His word and is always faithful because His word says He is. Following YHWH's word has never failed me yet and it never will.

Does a pilot fly based on feelings or his instrument panel and how he has been trained? If a pilot flies by his feelings please let me know so I can avoid him like the palgue. YHWH's word is my instruction book and manual.

Oh! There it is! I knew it would eventually come to this - the old "you must be influenced by Satan" argument. This kind of thing really ticks me off. Do you realize that you are indirectly (by implication) accusing all of those authors whose books I've been reading of being agents of the "devil"? Anyone who espouses any beliefs not recognized in the Bible is supposedly being influenced by Satan??? That is the same rationale that allowed early Christians to embark on the Holy Crusades, or conduct the Spanish Inquisition, or burn "witches" in Salem Mass. They could feel just fine about murdering thousands of innocent people because they could justify their behavior with Bible verses like 2 Corinthians 11:14 (above).

Heidi, I quoted YHWHs's words not mine. If you want to blame someone put the blame where it should be, on Him. I am but a messenger. I am not accusing anyone. I merely asked you to think about where your belief comes from and are you sure it is not from the enemy.

Just because there are some whackos out there that claim to be believers and murder people does not mean they are believers. That is like abortionists being murdered and claiming YHWH told me to do it. Believers do not murder. How anyone can believe abortion is murder and then to commit murder themselves is straight from the pits of hell. Thank you for putting me in the same category as murderers Heidi.

No one says Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit