10-05-2005, 12:17 PM
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Is Salvation by faith alone?
Scriptures that indicate salvation IS by faith alone:
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Mk.16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jn.3:18, 36
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Acts 16:30-31
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Rom.1:16-17
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth .... As it is written, The just shall live by faith."
Rom.3:20
"By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Rom.3:28
"A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Rom.4:2
"For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?"
Rom.4:13
"For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
Rom.5:1
"Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Rom.10:9
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Gal.2:16
"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
Gal.3:11-12
"The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith."
Eph.2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
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Other scriptures that indicate salvation depends upon "works", "ways" or the "fruits" of our lives:
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Ps.62:12
"For you render to each one according to his works."
Pr.10:16
"The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin."
Jer.17:10
"I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
Ezekiel 18:27
"When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul."
Mt.12:37
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."
Mt.19:17
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mt.25:41-46
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Lk.10:26-28
"He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
Jn.5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Rom.2:6, 13
"Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."
2 Cor.5:10
"For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
2 Cor.11:15
"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."
Phil.2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Jas.2:14
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
Jas.2:17
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
Jas.2:21-25
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work."
Rev.2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev.20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
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10-05-2005, 12:52 PM
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The Outta Commissiona
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida Republic
Posts: 5,417
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That's because there is more than one gospel
http://forum.suijuris.net/showthread...ghlight=gospel
More specifically here
http://forum.suijuris.net/showpost.p...08&postcount=6
http://forum.suijuris.net/showpost.p...09&postcount=7
The children of Israel were under a works PLUS faith based gospel involving mandated water baptism into repentance and a faith in the promised redeemer Yohoshua
Christ's earthly ministry was restricted to ONLY the Children of Israel, who were guilty of not having have kept the law
Paul was commissioned to preach the Gospel of Grace to the Gentile World
which involved faith alone in Jesus as the crucified Sin Bearer and resurrected savior.
I encourage you to read the link above as it explains this concept more in detail.
Paul sets up a major case for this in the book of Romans
A seemingly contradictory verse;
Rom 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Shows that this is the only way God will count one righteous.
But he is making his case from Ch1 all the way through to Ch. 5 when he provides the answer:
Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So Yeshua Messiah obeyed the whole law where Heidi Guedel could not or ever hope to.
Yet, he was also punished for your disobedience so that you wouldn't have to be in the Lake of Fire for eternity.
Last edited by weishaupt1776 : 10-05-2005 at 12:57 PM.
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10-10-2005, 01:27 PM
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Thanks for that important 411 about Walker Todd, David. You really did us all a great service by speaking with him.
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Weis wrote:
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So Yeshua Messiah obeyed the whole law where Heidi Guedel could not or ever hope to.
Yet, he was also punished for your disobedience so that you wouldn't have to be in the Lake of Fire for eternity.
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It's just that I do not believe in any so-called religious "law" as written down by humans in any of their religious books. I don't believe there is or ever was any such thing as a "lake of fire"... especially because I do not believe in a punishing "god" that wanted animals, children, or anyone else to be "sacrificed". The whole foundation of blood sacrifice rituals goes back many centuries to primitive peoples who believed in appeasing an angry god with blood sacrifice rituals of various types.
I am a modern, reasonably well-educated and well-read person who does not share such beliefs. I think that what happened to Jesus of Nazareth was absolutely horrible.
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10-10-2005, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel
Thanks for that important 411 about Walker Todd, David. You really did us all a great service by speaking with him.
________________________________________
Weis wrote:
It's just that I do not believe in any so-called religious "law" as written down by humans in any of their religious books. I don't believe there is or ever was any such thing as a "lake of fire"... especially because I do not believe in a punishing "god" that wanted animals, children, or anyone else to be "sacrificed". The whole foundation of blood sacrifice rituals goes back many centuries to primitive peoples who believed in appeasing an angry god with blood sacrifice rituals of various types.
I am a modern, reasonably well-educated and well-read person who does not share such beliefs. I think that what happened to Jesus of Nazareth was absolutely horrible.
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What if the law written by humans was actually divinely inspired by God? the ten commandments were actually written by God himself on stone, thus the phrase "written in stone". later when the babylonian king (whose name escapes me)desecrated the stolen Jewish ritual cups by using them at a party, God wrote on the wall something like "this day you will die" and the king died. Thus the saying, "the hand writing on the wall".Think it not strange that god would write.
It makes perfect sense that God who led the Hebrews out of Egypt and then killed most of them on the desert when they turned their back on Him over and over (for I am a jealous God) and who asked Abraham to sacrifice his son but spared him, would give his son as payment for our sin because of his great love for us. you are right it goes against our notion of a peace loving God. that is the problem. god is not usually our idea of who he is. he said, I Am. his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. he is not peace loving. he is a war maker. He is for peace in every man but not for peace in the world, what a contrast! Jesus said, he came to set brother against brother. the kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force. much of the old testament is about Gods people warring against their enemies usually with God's help. he made the sun stand still so Joshua would have time to utterly defeat his enemy. but here is the point that those who have difficulty with the idea of a peace loving God miss. for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believed on Him would have life everlasting. That answers the question--how could he. Because he made a way out- that is the answer- he is not willing that any should perish but that all should have eternal life, but it is accounted to every man to die and then the judgment. then we can present our exemption-debt paid in full by the ultimate sacrifice if we have repented and taken the steps of Acts2:38. Jesus said I am the way the thuth and the life, no one enters the father except thru me. To think of God as peace loving fits our idea of how he is but then we start falling down the slippery slope of well I can do this or that because I am living in love and peace, and soon we start rationalising our decisions. it can be a difficult concept but I would ask anyone reading that does not believe to say, Jesus, if you are real, come into my heart and show me the way. If he is not real and is just someone's made up words what harm could be done? He is just and a gentleman, he will be faithful to show you the way. He said, "my yoke is easy". May His peace come upon you, not as the world knows it but as He gives it.
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10-10-2005, 11:11 PM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Colorado.
Posts: 6,323
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2520
What if DANIEL?;
http://ecclesia.org/forum/images/suitors/BOE1.gif
Bill of Exchange Image 1
http://ecclesia.org/forum/images/suitors/BOE2.gif
Bill of Exchange Image 2
http://ecclesia.org/forum/images/suitors/onscreen.jpg
http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_13th_Amendment_hanging_in_clerk's_office.j pg
Cecilia’s computer screen
The mathematics:
www.ecclesia.org/forum/images/suitors/key.jpg
Cracking the Code graphic
Fine Structure Constant
awaken,
David Merrill.
P.S. Belshazzar: Nebuchadnezzar's grandson,
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What if the law written by humans was actually divinely inspired by God? the ten commandments were actually written by God himself on stone, thus the phrase "written in stone". later when the babylonian king (whose name escapes me)desecrated the stolen Jewish ritual cups by using them at a party, God wrote on the wall something like "this day you will die" and the king died. Thus the saying, "the hand writing on the wall".Think it not strange that god would write.
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2520 = Week.
http://ecclesia.org/forum/images/sui...elCalendar.jpg
Daniel's Calendar
Last edited by David Merrill : 10-11-2005 at 03:49 AM.
Reason: additions
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10-11-2005, 10:24 AM
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What if the law written by humans was actually divinely inspired by God?
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What proof do we have of that? Whose word are you taking for that alleged fact? There is no one’s word but those who wrote it and in so doing claimed it to be true. I do not happen to believe them. They are religious folk who wrote chapters and books thousands of years ago, setting forth their religious dogma.
It is interesting, and it is historical, but I do not believe those biblical writers’ claim that they were inspired by God… mainly because much of it is contradictory, abhorrent, or absolutely ridiculous in light of today’s rational, scientific knowledge… and just plain common sense.
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the ten commandments were actually written by God himself on stone, thus the phrase "written in stone".
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Why should we believe that God actually wrote anything on stone? Just because some writers claim that to be the case?
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later when the babylonian king (whose name escapes me)desecrated
the stolen Jewish ritual cups by using them at a party, God wrote on the wall something like "this day you will die" and the king died. Thus the saying, "the
hand writing on the wall".Think it not strange that god would write.
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What proof do we have that God actually wrote whatever was written on the wall (if indeed this ever happened). Yes, I think it is VERY strange that God would write anything on the wall, and I doubt if He actually did.
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It makes perfect sense that God who led the Hebrews out of Egypt and then killed most of them on the desert when they turned their back on Him over and over (for I am a jealous God)…
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It sure took God a long time to finally decide to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt (if you believe that story) … they were enslaved there for 400 years!!! And don’t you think MOST people stand a good chance of dying on the desert with no food or water?
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… and who asked Abraham to sacrifice his son but spared him, would give his son as payment for our sin because of his great love for us.
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FIRST one has to accept the very idea that the intelligence behind this universe actually told a man to sacrifice his son, or demanded that people sacrifice animals or children in rituals designed to appease an angry god before one can even approach the next premise about Jesus. I absolutely do not believe that the creator of this universe ever asked anyone to sacrifice any creature, child or man whatsoever. That is a primitive, sickening, and ghastly belief that I find absolutely abhorrent. It is founded upon pagan rituals practiced in the Middle East for thousands of years before Christ, and is a horrifying left-over from several ancient religions that sought to appease their versions of an angry god or gods.
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you are right it goes against our notion of a peace loving God. that is the problem. god is not usually our idea of who he is. he said, I Am. his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. he is not peace loving. he is a war maker. He is for peace in every man but not for peace in the world, what a contrast!
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People have used “god” throughout history as their excuse to murder other people who believe differently than they do. This is completely human. No “god” has ever told anyone to make war against others who believe differently. If a vast and incomprehensible intelligence created everything on this Earth, and in this universe, then why would it deliberately set populations of humans against each other with differing doctrines? That’s ridiculous.
Ron Cobb, a famous cartoonist, did a great satirical cartoon years ago. It illustrated two armies advancing toward each other, obviously prepared to do battle. Each army had a “thought balloon” above it, saying “God is on our side”. This is the sad irony behind all these religious “holy wars”… both sides believe that their version of God has told them to annihilate the opposition. When are we humans ever going to grow out of that nonsense???
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Jesus said, he came to set brother against brother.
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Another interesting contradiction! I thought Jesus said to “turn the other cheek” and to treat others as we would like to be treated!!! If Jesus is really God, why would he contradict himself like that?
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the kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force. much of the old testament is about Gods people warring against their enemies usually with God's help.
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Funny how all the other religious books, like the Koran, say the same thing. See my reference to Ron Cobb’s cartoon, above.
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…he made the sun stand still so Joshua would have time to utterly defeat his enemy.
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Do you really believe that story? It was obviously written by someone who did not yet understand that the Earth rotates around the Sun.
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but here is the point that those who have difficulty with the idea of a peace loving God miss. for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believed on Him would have life everlasting. That answers the question--how could he. Because he made a way out- that is the answer- he is not willing that any should perish but that all should
have eternal life, but it is accounted to every man to die and then the judgment. then we can present our exemption-debt paid in full by the ultimate sacrifice if we have repented and taken the steps of Acts2:38. Jesus said I am the way the thuth and the life, no one enters the father except thru me.
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Then why would god have bothered to create all those other people who have died and will die today and tomorrow without ever learning about Jesus??? That has never made sense to me. Does god just create all those other people for the heck of it, just to see them perish without hope? That makes no sense whatsoever. Not only that, but it becomes an excuse to hold prejudice against other people who do not “know Jesus”.
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To think of God as peace loving fits our idea of how he is
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Sorry… I think it is more obvious that to think of god as warlike fits our concept of the way we are. It is a projection and a justification of our warlike behavior.
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but then we start falling down the slippery slope of well I can do this or that because I am living in love and peace, and soon we start rationalising our decisions.
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I think humans have been rationalizing their decisions to make war on those who believe differently, or live differently, or look different, for centuries… and have been conveniently blaming “god” by claiming that “god” told them to kill other people for no reason but the fact that they believe differently, or live differently or look different. I will never quarrel with the legitimate right to defend ourselves against attack… but to initiate an attack and kill others just for being different is about as evil as you can get. Christians have been responsible for the Crusades and the Inquisition and have blamed God for the impulse to do such wretched things to other people. Now the Islamic terrorists are doing it. It is ALL evil.
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it can be a difficult concept but I would ask anyone reading that does not believe to say, Jesus, if you are real, come into my heart and show me the way. If he is not real and is just someone's made up words what harm could be done? He is just and a gentleman, he will be faithful to show you the way. He said, "my yoke is easy". May His peace come upon you, not as the world knows it but as He gives it.
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I have opened my heart and mind to the creator/creative intelligence behind this universe, and I accept and welcome the love and guidance that I receive. I have received some absolutely wonderful and very convincing guidance for many years. Because of this, I am quite certain that the universe and the life within it are no accident.
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10-11-2005, 10:34 AM
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Getting back to the original thread about being saved by faith-- the Bible actually says we are saved by grace and that through faith. Salvation is extended to us on a personal basis by the grace of God and we accept the offer by faith. Once we accept, how do we show it? Faith without works is dead. I was floored when I read, "if you do my words then you will love me". You see I had been reading the words getting warm fuzzies but I hadn't been doing the words. What is there to do? Forgive, pray for your enemies, love, teach, give. Works without love are a clashing cymbal. Works without love are nothing. Thus we see that works are not for salvation but are evidence of salvation. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling-see "work". This then is true religion, that we feed the poor and help the widows and orphans. Jesus said visit the sick, those that are in prison, give water to the thirsty. Out of your belly will flow rivers of living water.
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10-11-2005, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by David Merrill
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Dave, your cracking the code cracks me up. Part of your links I can't read because they are a little too small and the ones I can read I don't comprehend. Can you interpret for me? |
10-11-2005, 12:00 PM
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It is interesting, and it is historical, but I do not believe those biblical writers’ claim that they were inspired by God… mainly because much of it is contradictory, abhorrent, or absolutely ridiculous in light of today’s rational, scientific knowledge… and just plain common sense.
Heidi, I appreciate your searching for the truth. May I invite you to read a book called, "More Than a Carpenter's Son"? It looks at the Bible from a scholars viewpoint. Areas investigated are is this document historically, accurate, is there evidence of its authenticity? For instance it points out that no one questions Homer's Illiad. well there are only 5 original manuscripts. There are over 20,000 original manuscripts of the New Testament. (I am making up the numbers because I don't remember the exact one but it is this type of ratio) What was striking to me were the other areas of analysis such as is the story internally consistent. One example was the disciples fled Jesus when he was arrested. Peter denied him. yet later these same men stood up in front of the religious body (sanhedrin?) and refused to stop proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus. What happened? Our understanding of human nature tells us that these men had a profound experience. It makes sense that they saw Jesus alive and well after his death. If it were not true, if over 500 people had not seen him alive the religiuos leaders would have produced the body and squashed that deal. could you imagine the CIA, ATF and IRS coming for the body of your leader? Think anyone could hide the body? Another example. The roman guards were trained to fight and kill. They were drilled in honor , they trained that they would be put to death if a prisoner excaped. The disciples stole the body? How did they move the rock? it makes sense that the disciples saw the risen Christ and that they were indued with supernatural power. Jesus said, "tarry in Jerusalem and you will be indued with power from on high". Peter stood up in the day of Pentecost and told the crowd that had gathered under their window because of the commotion, "we are not drunk as you suppose. This is what the prophet Joel prophesied, that in the last days he would pour out his spirit on all flesh" and speak in other tongues. He said of Christ's death and resurrection "you were all witnesses".
So I urge you to read the book. You are closer to Jesus than you realize because he hated the religious establishment. he said,"you brood of vipers you put heavy burdens on people and don't help them, my yoke is light, I am come to release the prisoners, to set the captives free to proclaim the good and acceptable year of the Lord. You whitewash the outside of the cup but the inside is filthy." "You pay tithes of mint and (something) but you ignore the weightier things of the law like mercy and judgment. You do not enter the kingdom of God and bar others from entering". Does this sound like someone you would like to know? "For I did not come to condemn the world but to convict it".
He did not come to wage a physical war on the world and how Judas and the disciples were let down when he did not fight back! So he is your kind of God Heidi. he was not in favor of physical war by believers. He is all about spiritual warfare. Starting with our own spiritual warfare for the weapons we have are powerful to the pulling down of strongholds and bringing into captivity every thought that exalts itself against the high knowledge of God. in other words the battle is in the mind. That is why thousands followed him for the loaves and fishes but when he was resurrested only 500 showed up to see him ascend into heaven. Not good odds is it? many are called, few are chosen.
I would invite you to call on the name of Jesus ,Heidi. If he is not the creator of the universe what harm would it do? What harm? If he is then watch out, he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. Before the world ,was the word and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. i would not want anyone calling me indian even though I am part. I would not want anyone calling me cajun even though I am part, I wouldn't want any one calling on me by attorney even though I am one, or english even tho that is part of my heritage. I would prefer to be called upon by my name.
You are not alone that you abhor wars and destruction. Why can't we all just get along? Because there is an enemy roaring about the earth looking for whom he may devour. jesus said before he comes again there would be wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and calamities. He said it must be so. maybe some need to be scared into His arms. he said the whole earth groans awaiting his return. But he said fear not believe only, I will send you the comforte, the Holy Spirit who will lead you and guide you to all truth.
Check out the book and see if it helps you search from a scientific approach. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to jump in- take a leap of faith. Come on in the water is fine!
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