Is Secularism and Legalism good for this country?

Jerry Pitts posted:

Would this internal guidance of yours then also include the murders that are being committed in the guise of National Security? in example, the alleged war on terror.

I do not believe that taking life in self-defense constitutes murder. We are embroiled in a war against terror because religiously motivated terrorists are bent on murdering us for being "infidels" in their eyes... which makes my earlier point. I am not in favor of killing them because they do not share my beliefs... I am in favor of killing them or incarcerating them if they are actually planning to kill me/us.

Now... if murders are actually being committed under the guise of national security - meaning that people who were not terrorists or were not involved in terrorist plots are murdered under false pretenses, that is a different matter. I have no idea if that is actually happening or not.

Would that internal guidance also forbid the taking of life as in capital punishment?

I support capital punishment only in self-defense. I am perfectly happy to see convicted murderers live out their lives in prison, unless a so-called life sentence includes possibility of parole. Then I would be in favor of capital punishment for purposes of self-defense (to completely prevent recidivism).

The heart I recognize to be an internal organ that pumps blood throughout the body. The mind is an abstract term unless you are referencing the brain. The conscience is an unknown. Can you please clairfy what the conscience is and also point to a authority source?

Jerry.

That's time-wasting argument, Jerry. I believe most people do understand that the noun "heart" as applied in that context means compassion, empathy, sympathy for others. I believe that the mind (consciousness) exists apart from the brain, but utilizes the brain (that would be a whole new thread, IMO - lots of recent research in that area, BTW). Most people recognize the noun "conscience" to mean the human capacity to feel guilt when contemplating or perpetrating atrocities against other sentient beings.

I sense that you may be driving at the religious concept that "god" must be the source and authority of all such feelings and human responses. Since there are so many different concepts of "god" - various interpretations of "god" that humans have been fighting and killing each other over for centuries - how can "god" be in control? And which/who's "god" do you mean?

And if "god" is really omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, then "god" must be responsible for all of the religious differences and all of the killing that has resulted therefrom. Hmmmm. That must be "god's" plan for ongoing population control, then, huh?

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Jerry Pitts posted:


I do not believe that taking life in self-defense constitutes murder. We are embroiled in a war against terror because religiously motivated terrorists are bent on murdering us for being "infidels" in their eyes... which makes my earlier point. I am not in favor of killing them because they do not share my beliefs... I am in favor of killing them or incarcerating them if they are actually planning to kill me/us.

Now... if murders are actually being committed under the guise of national security - meaning that people who were not terrorists or were not involved in terrorist plots are murdered under false pretenses, that is a different matter. I have no idea if that is actually happening or not.



I support capital punishment only in self-defense. I am perfectly happy to see convicted murderers live out their lives in prison, unless a so-called life sentence includes possibility of parole. Then I would be in favor of capital punishment for purposes of self-defense (to completely prevent recidivism).



That's time-wasting argument, Jerry. I believe most people do understand that the noun "heart" as applied in that context means compassion, empathy, sympathy for others. I believe that the mind (consciousness) exists apart from the brain, but utilizes the brain (that would be a whole new thread, IMO - lots of recent research in that area, BTW). Most people recognize the noun "conscience" to mean the human capacity to feel guilt when contemplating or perpetrating atrocities against other sentient beings.

I sense that you may be driving at the religious concept that "god" must be the source and authority of all such feelings and human responses. Since there are so many different concepts of "god" - various interpretations of "god" that humans have been fighting and killing each other over for centuries - how can "god" be in control? And which/who's "god" do you mean?

And if "god" is really omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, then "god" must be responsible for all of the religious differences and all of the killing that has resulted therefrom. Hmmmm. That must be "god's" plan for ongoing population control, then, huh?

Heidi; I really do appreciate your candor in answering these questions. I admit, that they may appear to be leading and that is exactly what they were designed to do.

You answered in a manner in which I am glad that you did, as it emphasizes the point I have been attempting to stress to others for a long while.

Based upon MY presumption that God is Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, it does in fact mean within the context of the terms that He (God) is responsible for everything that takes place. We, on the otherhand, are mere puppets on the stage that He has set up and circumstances are designed by God to be completed as He has willed. It is His Permissive Will that allows things to happen that would appear to us to be un-righteous, wrong, evil, twisted etc.

If we claim to be the master of our own lives, then are we not subverting the concept that God is all of these omni titles? Are we not putting ourselves above God, if we think that we can do anything that is not already within His Permissive Will. Now when I say 'we', I am referring to those that do believe in God. God is the ultimate Sovereign, what He says is what must be done in order to accomplish His Perfect Plan.

Hmmmm.

Jerry

[MADDOG]

Jerry wrote:

Based upon MY presumption that God is Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, it does in fact mean within the context of the terms that He (God) is responsible for everything that takes place. We, on the otherhand, are mere puppets on the stage that He has set up and circumstances are designed by God to be completed as He has willed.

If we claim to be the master of our own lives, then are we not subverting the concept that God is all of these omni titles?

But if "god" is really all of those omni titles, and is responsible for everything that takes place, then it was part of his plan that some of us would claim to be the master of our own lives and therefore subvert the concept that god is omni(everything). See the nonsense???

Are we not putting ourselves above God, if we think that we can do anything that is not already within His Permissive Will.

Well according to your beliefs, some of us putting ourselves above god must have been part of his permissive will, then, and part of his plan from the beginning of creation. See the nonsense now???

Now when I say 'we', I am referring to those that do believe in God. God is the ultimate Sovereign, what He says is what must be done in order to accomplish His Perfect Plan.

So god's "perfect plan" must be for some people not to believe in god at all and go to "hell"... and for some people to believe in one interpretation of god and others to believe in another interpretation of god, and others to believe in yet another interpretation of god, and so on and so on ... and then some of these people with their different interpretations of god are supposed to decide to kill each other (commit murder) because of all their religious differences. That's all part of god's perfect plan??? Then god must be a perfect sadist. Sorry. That belief turns out to be utter nonsense when you extrapolate it.

Originally Posted by MADDOG

Jerry wrote:


But if "god" is really all of those omni titles, and is responsible for everything that takes place, then it was part of his plan that some of us would claim to be the master of our own lives and therefore subvert the concept that god is omni(everything). See the nonsense???



Well according to your beliefs, some of us putting ourselves above god must have been part of his permissive will, then, and part of his plan from the beginning of creation. See the nonsense now???

If you believe in God, then you must also believe that God created that entity known as the devil, Satan, Lucifer. Was Satan part of Gods' plan? Yes!. Did God intend to allow Satan to behave in the manner that he has? Obviously so. Else it would not have happened that way. Is God the absolute Sovereign? Yes!.. The scripture teaches that God is the potter and we are the clay... He will mold us and make us according to His good and perfect Will. Of course, if you do not understand the nature of God, ie that He is ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGN, He can do as He pleases.. if it is His pleasure to do things that may appear to our feeble minds as "nonsense", that is His Perfect Will to do so; so if you don't understand that nature, then it would be non-sense to you.

Originally Posted by MADDOG

So god's "perfect plan" must be for some people not to believe in god at all and go to "hell"... and for some people to believe in one interpretation of god and others to believe in another interpretation of god, and others to believe in yet another interpretation of god, and so on and so on ... and then some of these people with their different interpretations of god are supposed to decide to kill each other (commit murder) because of all their religious differences. That's all part of god's perfect plan??? Then god must be a perfect sadist. Sorry. That belief turns out to be utter nonsense when you extrapolate it.

See the above answer..

It requires no extrapolation, only acceptance, just as we all have accepted the FRN as Money.

Jerry.

[MADDOG]

Jerry wrote:

See the above answer..

It requires no extrapolation, only acceptance, just as we all have accepted the FRN as Money.

Jerry.

Were you honestly trying to be funny Jerry? That last response (that I bolded) is really ironic. I, among others posting here, am simply forced by circumstances to accept FRN's as money, but I, among others here, also realize that FRN's are intrinsically worthless - only given value because of a perception of value.

As for the acceptance of obvious religious nonsense - like believing it is god's plan that people would decide not to believe in god, or to create a devil to influence people to do evil, or to kill each other over religious differences - no dice. Sorry. I was born with a brain and the capacity to use it. And when I do use it I do not believe there is a mythical "devil" influencing me to correctly recognize illogic and nonsense. I respect the intelligence I was born with, and it is not the work of the so-called "devil".

That religious/biblical doctrine which teaches followers to believe nonsense because non-believers will obviously recognize nonsense when they read or hear it is simply (and I do mean simply) designed to keep "believers" in the fold even after they realize that the scripture is nonsensical. It obviously works some of the time.

If you believe in God, then you must also believe that God created that entity known as the devil, Satan, Lucifer.

Not so. Only people who believe the Judeo/Christian bible believe that god created some entity known as the "devil". Other believers, in other versions of "god" and in other religions have no belief in any so-called "satan".

Originally Posted by MADDOG

Jerry wrote:


Were you honestly trying to be funny Jerry? That last response (that I bolded) is really ironic. I, among others posting here, am simply forced by circumstances to accept FRN's as money, but I, among others here, also realize that FRN's are intrinsically worthless - only given value because of a perception of value.

As for the acceptance of obvious religious nonsense - like believing it is god's plan that people would decide not to believe in god, or to create a devil to influence people to do evil, or to kill each other over religious differences - no dice. Sorry. I was born with a brain and the capacity to use it. And when I do use it I do not believe there is a mythical "devil" influencing me to correctly recognize illogic and nonsense. I respect the intelligence I was born with, and it is not the work of the so-called "devil".

That religious/biblical doctrine which teaches followers to believe nonsense because non-believers will obviously recognize nonsense when they read or hear it is simply (and I do mean simply) designed to keep "believers" in the fold even after they realize that the scripture is nonsensical. It obviously works some of the time.



Not so. Only people who believe the Judeo/Christian bible believe that god created some entity known as the "devil". Other believers, in other versions of "god" and in other religions have no belief in any so-called "satan".

Believe as you may Maddog. I am not here to attempt to FORCE you to believe anything. It is apparent that you do not believe as I, and that is perfectly acceptable. I have made no attack on your personal beliefs and do not intend to do so. If your intent is to continue attacking my beliefs, then this conversation has come to an end.

As for intelligence. Where did your intelligence come from? Self effort? Hmmmm.

Jerry.

[2tim215]

Originally Posted by MADDOG

Jerry wrote:

As for the acceptance of obvious religious nonsense - like believing it is god's plan that people would decide not to believe in god, or to create a devil to influence people to do evil, or to kill each other over religious differences - no dice. Sorry. I was born with a brain and the capacity to use it. And when I do use it I do not believe there is a mythical "devil" influencing me to correctly recognize illogic and nonsense. I respect the intelligence I was born with, and it is not the work of the so-called "devil".

That religious/biblical doctrine which teaches followers to believe nonsense because non-believers will obviously recognize nonsense when they read or hear it is simply (and I do mean simply) designed to keep "believers" in the fold even after they realize that the scripture is nonsensical. It obviously works some of the time.

Not so. Only people who believe the Judeo/Christian bible believe that god created some entity known as the "devil". Other believers, in other versions of "god" and in other religions have no belief in any so-called "satan".

One of the important things that seems to be missing in this discussion is God's decision to give to all mankind "free will", that is, freedom to either choose God or to reject Him. This I believe is critical to understanding of the issues that you (Maddog) and many others bring up from time to time.

Thus regarding God's "omni" characteristics, many seem to think that they are mutually exclusive from "free will" (they are not) which God has given to each and every person (with perhaps a very few exceptions) and I believe this causes many believers (and non-believers as well) a great deal of confusion as this is tough to reconcile (the "omni" characteristics of God and the free will of man). Therefore what may seem illogical to us at times does not mean that it doesn't make sense to God who (if there is such as a thing as "logic") is the creator of it as well.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (KJV) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

In addition, with regards to the existence of Satan or the "devil", one of what I think to be one of the best lines I ever heard was in the movie "The Usual Suspects" when Kevin Spacey (who was being interrogated by Chief of Police played by Chazz Palminteri) said to him regarding the "infamous" and mysterious person who was referred to as "Keyser Soze",

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

You certainly have the right to believe what you want but I would say to you as well as many others who do not believe that there is not a spiritual being named Satan who exists and whose sole purpose in life is to create havoc, misery and perpetuate evil against you and the entire human race in the hope of our eventual annihilation of the entire human race. You may want to at least consider the possiblity. It is one thing to have a powerful enemy who is bent on your destruction which you know about (at least you can come up with ways to combat that enemy) but it is totally another matter to have an enemy which you don't know or won't even acknowledge its existence. I'm not trying to be disrespect to your beliefs here, just giving you something you might want to reconsider.

In Spirit and in Truth,

2tim215

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[MADDOG]

Jerry wrote:

Believe as you may Maddog. I am not here to attempt to FORCE you to believe anything. It is apparent that you do not believe as I, and that is perfectly acceptable. I have made no attack on your personal beliefs and do not intend to do so. If your intent is to continue attacking my beliefs, then this conversation has come to an end.

My intent is to discuss the religious beliefs that have led throughout history to the persecution of people who do not share them. Christianity is not alone (obviously) in teaching that "infidels" are to be scorned and even killed. My intent is not to attack these kinds of beliefs because they are your beliefs, Jerry. I attack them in general because I believe that the sort of dogma that teaches believers that non-believers are somehow damned and "not chosen" has caused immeasurable harm to the human race and the world.

As for intelligence. Where did your intelligence come from? Self effort? Hmmmm.

I believe my intelligence is intrinsic and inborn. I then chose to augment it with study and the practice of logical communication skills.

2tim wrote:

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

And MADDOG says: "the greatest trick that religious human beings ever pulled was projecting their own evil thoughts and deeds onto a mythological character in order to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions."

One day it occurred to me that the usual character design for the "devil" is a guy with horns, a goatee, a tail, and cloven hooves. Then I suddenly connected it with the ancient Hebrew practice of "scapegoating" - in which some poor innocent goat was selected to bear all the sins of the Hebrew congregation, and driven out alone into the desert (presumably to die - or at the very least to suffer the emotional pain of separation from the rest of the herd). It then appeared rather obvious to me that the character design for the "devil" resembled a goat - horns, goatee, cloven hooves; tail. This character was then credited with all the evil done by mankind. IMO all this character was designed to do was provide a convenient projection for man's own evil concepts and deeds, so that man could blame something/some"one" else for his own evil. I don't buy it.