Is Secularism and Legalism good for this country?

http://www.secularism.org.uk/

Quote of the Week
“Offence to religion is not a regrettable lapse: it is a positive good. One of the reasons Christianity has lost its power to oppress and terrorise is because it has been so thoroughly pilloried by comedians. Islam will only lose its own terrible sting – applied mostly to Muslim women and gays – it if too is mocked mercilessly.”
(Johann Hari, Independent)

Also this is on one of their pages...

The Nation’s Only Anti-Christmas Gift Shop Is Now Open On-Line
Following the spate of political-correctness-gone-mad-because-they’re taking-Christ-out-of-Christmas stories in the tabloids recently, the National Secular Society has opened its very own Insanely Politically Correct Winterval-Solstice-Holiday Season non-Christmas on-line shop.

It is packed with wonderful non-Christmas gifts and goodies, much of it unique and found nowhere else.

There’s a selection of exquisite secular greetings cards from the heartland of “Happy Holidays”, New York. Selected from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, these cards are beautifully produced and have greetings such as “Celebrate the Season” – and not a Madonna, Angel, Wise Man or shepherd in sight.

We have clothing with cheeky slogans to upset the vicar: “Religion is the Problem Not the Answer”, “I’m a Happy Heathen”; “Atheist and Proud of It” and so on. We have mugs that are similarly decorated.

We have a selection of DVDs, including the controversial American documentary The God Who Wasn’t There – which sets out to prove that there was no historical Jesus. Available only from this site in the UK.

Other titles include Inherit the Wind, about creationism versus Darwin; The Crucible about mad religious hysteria; Saved! an hilarious send-up of America’s Bible belt; the Magdalene Sisters – an indictment of Catholic cruelty; and The Crime of Father Amaro – a gripping study of religious corruption in Mexico.

Yes, there’s pretty much everything that the non-believer could wish for – and according to the last census, that’s nearly 25% of the population.

So, read our book “Our Pagan Christmas” (available in the shop) and find out how Christians hijacked the seasonal celebrations from much earlier cultures.

Pay us a call


All of the above, are just examples of what happens when secularism takes a stronghold on the judicial and legislative process. It is in full bloom in the UK, and we are closely following their lead. Where are the Christians in this nation. Are there any Christians in this nation that are willing to stand up against the wiles of the devil?

Jerry.

Are there any Christians in this nation that are willing to stand up against the wiles of the devil?

Why do you believe there is actually a persona known as "the Devil"?

Where does this entity - Satan, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub - actually exist?

When human beings do something evil, cruel or dishonest, do you really think "the Devil made them do it?"

[weishaupt1776]

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Why do you believe there is actually a persona known as "the Devil"?

Where does this entity - Satan, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub - actually exist?

When human beings do something evil, cruel or dishonest, do you really think "the Devil made them do it?"

In the Biblical Worldview; 3 things make us do things which are contrary to the will of the savior/creator/counselor:

Our own corrupted mind, will, and emotions (the flesh)

Outside influence from the World

Demonic possession/oppression

Or a pretty combination of such

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Why do you believe there is actually a persona known as "the Devil"?

Firstly; qualifying your question, I presume you are making a direct inquiry of me, JerryPitts. Short of bringing into the conversation various scriptures which would only lead to further debate, I will simply state that outside the precepts of 'religious indoctrination', there are no other probable answer to your question.
If I were to allude that it was due to human nature, then I would also be taking on a humanist viewpoint, thus turning humanism into another form of religious indoctrination. Scientifically speaking, science has never been able to prove or disprove the existence of spiritual entities, therefore, science has no position within the conversation.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Where does this entity - Satan, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub - actually exist?

In that spiritual realm, in which we know so little about in the physical sense, that it remains a mystery even to the most astute of researchers. If you were to suggest that these entities actually and only exist within our minds, then you are incorporating an un-proven scientific theory known as Psychology.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

When human beings do something evil, cruel or dishonest, do you really think "the Devil made them do it?"

Good and Evil exist, even if you set aside all possible avenues of examination, to include psychology, science, religion. As an example, if those avenues of examination did not exist, a person committing an act of rape, murder, theft, etc., would still be committing that act. The act would still be viewed as out of the ordinary behavior and would ultimately be labeled as this, that or the other thing..

A person who is the witness of such an act, would attempt to analyze the 'why' of the act, and would ultimately conclude, that 1: the act was committed as the result of some unknown condition of the persons individual makeup (a humanist/psychological/religious point of view) 2: that the act was committed as the result of some outside and unseen influence (religious or possibly scientific)

IMHO, again due to my personal religious indoctrination, I believe that the answer to your question would be an emphatic 'yes'.

I would be deeply appreciative to receive your view on the same questions.

Jerry.

Hi Jerry,

I asked:
Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel
Why do you believe there is actually a persona known as "the Devil"?

and Jerry Pitts replied:

outside the precepts of 'religious indoctrination', there are no other probable answer to your question.

Yes, Jerry, that is the answer I was looking for, and I appreciate your honest response.

Jerry also wrote:

If I were to allude that it was due to human nature, then I would also be taking on a humanist viewpoint, thus turning humanism into another form of religious indoctrination. Scientifically speaking, science has never been able to prove or disprove the existence of spiritual entities, therefore, science has no position within the conversation.

Interestingly enough, a certain new aspect of science, known as quantum physics, has taken the position that consciousness may be independent of the physical body, and Science of Mind teaches that the sum total of all consciousness makes up a universal mind from which we may derive wisdom and guidance. This universal mind or consciousness is manifested in everything that exists.

I don't believe that my rational realization that "the Devil" is a mythological figure (every bit as much as Zeus and Baal and Apollo are mythological figures) makes me a humanist. I consider myself a realist.

I do not exalt the human race above all other forms of life in the universe. I am interested in our position within the universe, and I also care about other forms of life. I am interested in scientific discoveries and intellectual and spiritual enlightenment.

I believe that all organized religion which teaches any form of exclusivity (treating unbelievers as "infidels" and considering them to be somehow "damned") has become a huge stumbling block to world peace and to human spiritual enlightenment and intellectual development.

Last night (AKA "Good Friday") we attended a Dance of Universal Peace, the purpose of which is always to foster love, understanding, spiritual community and peace between people of all religious backgrounds and national origins.

http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/

Jerry posted:

In that spiritual realm, in which we know so little about in the physical sense, that it remains a mystery even to the most astute of researchers. If you were to suggest that these entities actually and only exist within our minds, then you are incorporating an un-proven scientific theory known as Psychology.

There are many theories incorporated in the study of Psychology... some are well accepted and others are formative, but psychology itself is a construct of the human intellect. Mythological characters like Satan, AKA Lucifer AKA Beelzebub are also constructs of the human intellect. The very concept of "evil" is a construct of the human intellect. A male lion that takes over a pride and heartlessly kills the cubs which were fathered by the former King of the pride does not ponder concepts of "evil" or "cruelty". He does something pitiless and pragmatic designed to bring the mother lions back into oestrus and make them receptive to mating with him... thus fostering his own genetic imprint on future generations. Every now and then I catch one of those scenes in a wildlife program, and it horrifies me. I see the poor little cubs trying in vain to escape, and the big male lion ripping them to shreds. The image haunts me and I wish I'd never seen it. If a human male were to kill his new mate's existing children he would most likely be considered "evil" and "cruel" by other human beings. The very concept of "evil" is a construct of the human mind. It is an evaluation of someone or something's behavior based upon our human capacity for empathy and identification with another's feelings (compassion). This emotional capacity should now propel us toward a new level of social consciousness.

A man who kills others just because they do not share his religious beliefs is far worse than that male lion, because the human being is normally capable of empathy, pity, and compassion. The fact that any type of religious or political zealotry can turn a human being into a pitiless killing machine willing to take another's life simply because that other person's beliefs differ from his own is the chief social challenge of the moment. If we do not evolve beyond this behavior, we are most likely doomed as a species.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Hi Jerry,


and Jerry Pitts replied:

Yes, Jerry, that is the answer I was looking for, and I appreciate your honest response.

Actually Heidi, to avoid sounding puffed up, honesty had little to do with it. Firstly; I simply hate getting caught in telling a half truth or full blown lie wherein I have to resort to other mistruths to hide the first one. Secondly; it is the Christian thing to do.... you know, the difference between right and wrong or good and evil.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Jerry also wrote:

Interestingly enough, a certain new aspect of science, known as quantum physics, has taken the position that consciousness may be independent of the physical body, and Science of Mind teaches that the sum total of all consciousness makes up a universal mind from which we may derive wisdom and guidance. This universal mind or consciousness is manifested in everything that exists.

Of course Heidi, we both realize that this new way of viewing something mentally, is mere conjecture and at present time, has not been proven to be accurate. In fact, it is 'theory'.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

I don't believe that my rational realization that "the Devil" is a mythological figure (every bit as much as Zeus and Baal and Apollo are mythological figures) makes me a humanist. I consider myself a realist.

re·al·ist
n.
One who is inclined to literal truth and pragmatism.
A practitioner of artistic or philosophic realism.

rationalize
verb
To show to be just, right, or valid:
excuse, justify, vindicate.
Idiom: make a case for.
See right.
To offer reasons for or a cause of:
account for, explain, justify.
See explain.

It would appear, Heidi, that there is an instant conflict with what you are stating. On the one hand, you indicate that you are a realist - one that seeks out the literal truth. While on the other hand, you base your statement on conjecture and theory. Until the conjecture or theory can be proven, it is not a truth, but a mere supposition, fantasy, fairy tale, fable, myth.

Further definition -

jus·ti·fy
v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v. tr.
To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

To declare free of blame; absolve.

To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

Law a. To demonstrate sufficient legal reason for (an action taken). b. To prove to be qualified as a bondsman.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

I do not exalt the human race above all other forms of life in the universe. I am interested in our position within the universe, and I also care about other forms of life. I am interested in scientific discoveries and intellectual and spiritual enlightenment.

The exaltation you speak of is not ours to either bestow on one another or deny to one another. That exaltation came from God. God is the one that has put man(kind) above all other creatures on the earth.

I concur that scientific discovery is interesting and sometimes even fascinating. Now if I had to choose between the remaining two, intellectual and spiritual, enlightenment(s), I would definitely have to go for the spiritual. Intellectual carries with it the connotation of being 'earth bound'.. intellect is something that pertains to the earthy being, and has not one bit of effect upon the spiritual being. IMHO

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

I believe that all organized religion which teaches any form of exclusivity (treating unbelievers as "infidels" and considering them to be somehow "damned") has become a huge stumbling block to world peace and to human spiritual enlightenment and intellectual development.

I, likewise, have been waiting for you to say that and am glad that you have stipulated the matter in a truthful manner. As indicated above, you have stated that you "believe" such and such.. Well Heidi.. I also believe that the Devil is real, has real power, and can receive and take souls to a hell as described in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Last night (AKA "Good Friday") we attended a Dance of Universal Peace, the purpose of which is always to foster love, understanding, spiritual community and peace between people of all religious backgrounds and national origins.

http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/

I reserve comment on your last paragraph until such time as I have reviewed your link and some other pertinent documentation.

Jerry.

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Jerry posted:


There are many theories incorporated in the study of Psychology... some are well accepted and others are formative, but psychology itself is a construct of the human intellect. Mythological characters like Satan, AKA Lucifer AKA Beelzebub are also constructs of the human intellect. The very concept of "evil" is a construct of the human intellect. A male lion that takes over a pride and heartlessly kills the cubs which were fathered by the former King of the pride does not ponder concepts of "evil" or "cruelty". He does something pitiless and pragmatic designed to bring the mother lions back into oestrus and make them receptive to mating with him... thus fostering his own genetic imprint on future generations. Every now and then I catch one of those scenes in a wildlife program, and it horrifies me. I see the poor little cubs trying in vain to escape, and the big male lion ripping them to shreds. The image haunts me and I wish I'd never seen it. If a human male were to kill his new mate's existing children he would most likely be considered "evil" and "cruel" by other human beings. The very concept of "evil" is a construct of the human mind. It is an evaluation of someone or something's behavior based upon our human capacity for empathy and identification with another's feelings (compassion). This emotional capacity should now propel us toward a new level of social consciousness.

A man who kills others just because they do not share his religious beliefs is far worse than that male lion, because the human being is normally capable of empathy, pity, and compassion. The fact that any type of religious or political zealotry can turn a human being into a pitiless killing machine willing to take another's life simply because that other person's beliefs differ from his own is the chief social challenge of the moment. If we do not evolve beyond this behavior, we are most likely doomed as a species.

Honestly Heidi, and I do not mean to sound uncaring or unreceptive to what you are saying. It appears that most of what you have written above, is a justification of your 'belief' system. I have not attempted to justify my belief system, and in fact have stipulated that it (my belief) is based upon religious indoctrination. Can you also be honest enough to not attempt to justify that which you cannot prove.

In psychology, it is a given, that there are no pragmatic absolutes.... it is all theory.

Jerry.

[MADDOG]

jerrypitts wrote:

It appears that most of what you (Heidi) have written above, is a justification of your 'belief' system. I have not attempted to justify my belief system, and in fact have stipulated that it (my belief) is based upon religious indoctrination. Can you also be honest enough to not attempt to justify that which you cannot prove.

Heidi wrote:

The fact that any type of religious or political zealotry can turn a human being into a pitiless killing machine willing to take another's life simply because that other person's beliefs differ from his own is the chief social challenge of the moment. If we do not evolve beyond this behavior, we are most likely doomed as a species.

It's easy enough to prove that religious or political zealotry has influenced humans to kill each other because they all consider unbelievers to be headed for thier particular mythological hell (or something similar in their own eccentric religious belief system). History is replete with examples, and I've seen then enumerated here MANY times. That point has been well proven.

And Jerry, you believe the Bible. OK. I've never seen one shred of corroborating proof that the bible is actually the word of god. It says it is and that's good enough for you and the other believers? Well, fine - but don't act like everyone else should come up with some sort of objective standard of proof when you cannot.

Guys here will take apart the tax code and the commercial code word-by-word looking for inconsistencies, flaws and legal loopholes, but they'll swallow the bible whole and then believe that when they commit a so-called sin "the Devil made me do it". Go figure.

Originally Posted by MADDOG

jerrypitts wrote:


Heidi wrote:


It's easy enough to prove that religious or political zealotry has influenced humans to kill each other because they all consider unbelievers to be headed for thier particular mythological hell (or something similar in their own eccentric religious belief system). History is replete with examples, and I've seen then enumerated here MANY times. That point has been well proven.

And Jerry, you believe the Bible. OK. I've never seen one shred of corroborating proof that the bible is actually the word of god. It says it is and that's good enough for you and the other believers? Well, fine - but don't act like everyone else should come up with some sort of objective standard of proof when you cannot.

If you will kindly look back at my statements, you will find that I have deliberately included the statement that my belief system is based upon 'religious indoctrination'. Isn't that kinda like having it drilled into you and after a period of time, accepting it in blind faith, without any standard of proof? I have never claimed to have the evidence available or otherwise be able to prove the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible. Also, if upon examination of the statement of mine that you have quoted, you will find that I have not asked Heidi to prove anything, but rather have requested that she not attempt to prove (justify) her belief system.

Originally Posted by MADDOG

Guys here will take apart the tax code and the commercial code word-by-word looking for inconsistencies, flaws and legal loopholes, but they'll swallow the bible whole and then believe that when they commit a so-called sin "the Devil made me do it". Go figure.

Others would believe that mankind crawled out of the primordial waters and over billions of years grew legs and became what we know today as homosapiens. Never minding the fact that the odds against such an event are 100 trillion to one against it - at least, and that somewhere along the line, those sewer creatures all of a sudden quit coming out of the water.. go figure.

Personally, I believe in the existence of the Devil, but have never seriously considered laying at the fault of the Devil, my misdeeds. If anything, I would have to blame all of the world problems on God Himself. After all He is Omniscent, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent. He is in control of everything. Nothing can happen without His consent. No decision can be made that was not within His prior knowledge and within His consent. Are those things to be considered a 'fault'? Not hardly.. they are the privilege of being the OmniSovereign.

Jerry