Catholic protestant debate.

[s_mocko]

Sola Scriptora.

Did Our Lord write any part of the New Testament or command His Apostles to do so? Our Lord Himself never wrote a line, nor is there any record that He ordered his Apostles to write; He did command them to teach and to preach. Also He to Whom all power was given in Heaven and on earth (Matt. 28-18) promised to give them the Holy Spirit (John 14-26) and to be with them Himself till the end of the world (Mat. 28-20).


Was it a teaching or a Bible-reading Church that Christ founded? The Protestant Bible expressly states that Christ founded a teaching Church, which existed before any of the New Testament books were written.

Rom. 10-17: So then faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God.

Matt. 28-19: Go ye therefore and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Mark. 16-20: And they went forth, and PREACHED everywhere the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Mark 16-15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world and PREACH the gospel to every creature.


Was there any drastic difference between what Our Lord commanded the Apostles to teach and what the New Testament contains? Our Lord commanded his Apostles to teach all things whatsoever He had commanded; (Matt. 28-20); His Church must necessarily teach everything; (John 14-26); however, the Protestant Bible itself teaches that the Bible does not contain all of Our Lord's doctrines:

John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book, etc.

John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

COMMENT: How would it have been possible for second century Christians to practice Our Lord's religion, if private interpretation of an unavailable and only partial account of Christ's teaching were indispensable?


Does the New Testament expressly refer to Christ's "unwritten word"? The New Testament itself teaches that it does not contain all that Our Lord did or, consequently, all that He taught.

John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book, etc.

John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written everyone, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written Amen.

COMMENT: Since the Bible is incomplete, it needs something else to supplement it; i.e., the spoken or historically recorded word which we call Tradition.


What became of the unwritten truths which Our Lord and the Apostles taught? The Church has carefully conserved this "word of mouth" teaching by historical records called Tradition. Even the Protestant Bible teaches that many Christian truths were to be handed down by word of mouth.

2 Thes. 2-15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Tim. 2-2: And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

COMMENT: Hence not only Scripture but other sources of information must be consulted to get the whole of Christ's teaching. Religions founded on "the Bible only" are therefore necessarily incomplete.


Who finally did decide which books were inspired and therefore belonged to the New Testament? Shortly before 400 A. D. a General Council of the Catholic Church, using the infallible authority which Christ had given to his own divine institution, finally decided which books really belonged to the New Testament and which did not.


Either the Church at this General Council was infallible, or it was not.
If the Church was infallible then, why is it not infallible now? If the Church was not infallible then, in that case the New Testament is not worth the paper it is written on, because internal evidences of authenticity and inspiration are inconclusive and because the work of this Council cannot now be rechecked; this is obvious from reply to next question.

COMMENT: In view of these historical facts, it is difficult to see how non-Catholics can deny that it was from the (Roman) Catholic Church that they received the New Testament.

Either the Church at this General Council was infallible, or it was not.

Human beings are never infallible. Also, "infallibility" is itself a construct of the human mind, and by definition is impossible to attain.

If the Church was infallible then, why is it not infallible now?

The Church, being composed of human beings, was never infallible and is not infallible now.

If the Church was not infallible then,...

It wasn't.

...in that case the New Testament is not worth the paper it is written on, because internal evidences of authenticity and inspiration are inconclusive and because the work of this Council cannot now be rechecked; this is obvious from reply to next question.

All so-called "holy books" of whatever religion are products of the human mind and imagination. Some of the writings are historical records, and some of the writings are hearsay, and some of the writings are extremely illogical, imaginative, and pure fantasy.

COMMENT: In view of these historical facts, it is difficult to see how non-Catholics can deny that it was from the (Roman) Catholic Church that they received the New Testament.

We do know that the Christian Council of Nicea, under the orders of the Roman Emperor, Constantine, was a committee which decided what writings were to be included in the first Christian Bible. I believe these human beings were in no way infallible, nor do I have any reason whatsoever to believe that they were inspired by the mind of God.

[SansRecours]

If you read the new testament writings, specifically the Book of Luke, and the Book of Acts you will find that these writings are documentation somewhat in the form of testimony, corroborating with various other writings of the same testament, hence the word "testament."

This particular book starts off with "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
It seemed good unto me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, that thou mightest know of a certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

This gospel plainly is called by the author of it a declaration of facts, and firsthand knowledge, in much the same matter as an affidavit. It further continues into the Book of Acts in the same manner accounting events post ascension.

It is widely believed that the "Theophilus" was the same as Agrippa, and that the two books were as one evidentiary document sent in aid of Paul's defense of the Gospel.

The Great Commission at the ends of the various books of the New Testament i.e "Go and Teach, etc" can be construed as a command to write and witness without overreaching its import.

So far as the churches; catholic, protestant, baptist etc.- There is no denomination spoken in the scriptures and ALL presently known denominations adhere to elements of the scriptures, but not to the Word in its entirety.

Had there been agreement in the Word in its entirety then there might be no denominationalism. Notwithstanding, the major denominations at the time did agree in the primary tenets of Christianity, (same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and authority of Jesus Christ) and did agree on the efficacious results of Scriptural adherence, and its being necessary for good government.This is the thrust beind the first amendment, only applicable to the Christian religion in general, and not contemplating Mohommedanism (as called at the time) Judaism, Catholicism (because of papacy).

It is my experience that the more Christ and Bible applying one does in his life personally and communally, the easier it gets to get the left foot of fellowship (asked to leave whatever "church" one belongs to, by those in control of fleecing the sheep).

SansRecours

All of this points to the logical conclusion that the gospels were written by ordinary human beings and were not divinely inspired, and are therefore not infallible.

[weishaupt1776]

So how does the premise that the summation of four fallible people's account of the same event, with variations;point to something not being divinely inspired?

Originally Posted by weishaupt1776

So how does the premise that the summation of four fallible people's account of the same event, with variations;point to something not being divinely inspired?

I originally mentioned that the 4 gospels were written decades after Jesus' crucifixion. The gospel of Luke has been estimated by scholars to have been written between 70 - 90 years later, so it has to be hearsay.

My skepticism is predicated on reason and logic. Divine inspiration should be completely accurate, shouldn't it? If all 4 gospel writers were actually divinely inspired, I would expect their accounts to be absolutely consistent... but they are not. There are differences, which is only human.

I respect and admire the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, and I do believe that he was actually crucified - Roman historians recorded that fact as well.

But I don't believe in immaculate conception or special resurrection for any one particular person. I also do not believe in blood sacrifice as an atonement to any god(s) and I do not believe that any god(s) ever told anyone to do any such horrible thing.

I've found far more believable evidence for reincarnation and for the eternality of consciousness, which applies equally to everyone.

[Codee]

Originally Posted by s_mocko

Sola Scriptora.

Did Our Lord write any part of the New Testament or command His Apostles to do so? Our Lord Himself never wrote a line, nor is there any record that He ordered his Apostles to write; He did command them to teach and to preach. Also He to Whom all power was given in Heaven and on earth (Matt. 28-18) promised to give them the Holy Spirit (John 14-26) and to be with them Himself till the end of the world (Mat. 28-20).

The church did a great job of covering up writings. We just got Juda and I doubt it will be included in the bible. Yes there is no record, but who has been keeping and destroying records for the last 200 years??? the catholic church!!!
I cannot believe that the smartest, kindest man in our history never wrote anything!
I can believe that his words were locked up so we could not view them directly.
There are rumors of Jesus writings and that he states absolutly that church is not the means to heaven, that salvation is.

[Codee]

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

All of this points to the logical conclusion that the gospels were written by ordinary human beings and were not divinely inspired, and are therefore not infallible.

yes! If god were talking directly to these people and they are going to write a bible with everything we need for salvation in it,,, why have Jesus be born and die at all? Just to teach the same thing god spoke to Jesus's friends?
The appostiles just used Jesus for popularity after he died.

[s_mocko]

AUTHORITY OF CHRIST'S CHURCH
The Bible teaches that the rulers of Christ's Church have authority which must be obeyed in matters of religion.

Heb. 13, 17: Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Matt 18-17: And if he shall neglect to hear them tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Luke 10-16: He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Matt. 16-19: And I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

COMMENT: The apostles repeatedly claimed this authority: Gal. 1-8; John 1-10; Acts 15, 23 and 28. Hence the laws or precepts of the true Church are founded upon the same authority as the commandments of God. For the Church of Christ has authority to act in his Name.

INFALLIBILITY OF CHRIST'S CHURCH
i.e., THAT IT CANNOT ERR IN TEACHING CHRIST'S RELIGION

ONE
The Bible teaches that not the Bible itself, but the Holy Ghost was the teacher of the Apostles.

John 14-26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things. and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16-13: How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth . . .

Acts 1-8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

COMMENT: In consequence, the true Church was necessarily infallible, being as St. Paul said (l Timothy 5-15) "the pillar and ground of the truth."


TWO
The Bible teaches that the Church has Christ always WITH IT and the Holy Ghost always to guide it-not only during the first century but during all future ages.

Matt. 28-20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you ALWAYS, EVEN UNTO THE END of the world. Amen.

John 14-16: And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER.

COMMENT: Hence it is an insult to Christ and the Holy Spirit to say that God's Church fell into error and had to be reformed by Luther, Calvin and other men or women.


PERPETUITY OF THE ORIGINAL CHURCH
The Bible teaches that the visible Church of Christ has had and will ever have uninterrupted existence.

Matt. 28, 19-20: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost . . . lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Matt. 16-18: . . . and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

COMMENT: Hence the theory that Christ's Church, which began with Christ, failed - became non-existent for 1000 or more years - and then was revived by either Luther, Calvin, Knox or some other man or woman, is ridiculous and untrue.


VISIBLE UNITY OF THE CHURCH
The Bible teaches that Christ ascribed to his Church qualities and gave to it the names that proved it to be a VISIBLE organization with VISIBLE UNITY among its followers.

Romans 12-5: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Eph. 4-3 to 5-3: Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4. There is ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc.

John 10-16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rom. 12, 4-5: For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office, etc.

John 17-21: That they may be one, as thou Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that (as a consequence) the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

In many places of scripture, Christ's Church is compared to a house, a body, a city built on a mountain, a sheepfold, etc.; but these are all visible things. Hence Christ's Church besides being one spirit is also "One Body." The Catholic Church alone has this two-fold unity. The "invisible" theory is therefore false on the face of it.

COMMENT: Contrast the unity of Faith, Fold and Shepherd in the Catholic Church with the dissenting, contradictory tenets of 400 Protestant organizations and the divinity of the former becomes obvious and certain.

CATHOLICITY OF THE CHURCH
The Bible teaches that from the beginning and in every age the true Church of Christ is all over the world or universal; the Greek word used is "Katholikos," from which the English word "Catholic" is derived.

Matt. 28, 19: Go ye therefore, and teach ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16-15: And he said unto them, Go ye into ALL THE WORLD, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 1-8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me, both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea; and in Samaria, and unto the UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH.

Rom. 10-18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

COMMENT: Except the Catholic Church, what Christian organization has even a remote claim to universality, in point of place and in point of time? But this is what the essential nature of Christ's Church demands.


APOSTOLICTY
The Bible teaches that the Apostles appointed lawful successors to carry on their work.

Titus, 1-5: For this cause left I thee in Crete that thou shouldest set in order the things that was wanting, and ordain elders (i. e. priests) in every city, as I had appointed thee.

Acts, 13, 2 and 3: As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have recalled them. 3. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

The Bible teaches the one (and only one) Church which Christ founded had Simon Bar-Jona or Peter for its head. (Our Lord had changed his name from Simon Bar Jona to Peter.)

Matt. 16, 18-19: And I say also unto Thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, etc.

Later Our Lord made Simon-Peter pastor of both the lambs and the sheep, that is His whole flock.

John 21, 15 to 17: So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time. Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him. Feed my sheep. 17. He saith unto him the third time, Simon son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Our Lord promised that Peter would confirm the faith of the other Apostles:

Luke 22-32: But I have prayed for thee (Peter) that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

COMMENT: Hence only the Church having Peter and his lawful successors for its head can logically claim to be the Church of Christ.

For several days I failed to notice the above post championing the position of the Catholic Church as "infallible".

s_mocko posted:
(excerpt)

ONE
The Bible teaches that not the Bible itself, but the Holy Ghost was the teacher of the Apostles.

John 14-26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things. and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16-13: How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth . . .

Acts 1-8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

COMMENT: In consequence, the true Church was necessarily infallible, being as St. Paul said (l Timothy 5-15) "the pillar and ground of the truth."


TWO
The Bible teaches that the Church has Christ always WITH IT and the Holy Ghost always to guide it-not only during the first century but during all future ages.

Matt. 28-20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you ALWAYS, EVEN UNTO THE END of the world. Amen.

John 14-16: And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER.

COMMENT: Hence it is an insult to Christ and the Holy Spirit to say that God's Church fell into error and had to be reformed by Luther, Calvin and other men or women.


PERPETUITY OF THE ORIGINAL CHURCH
The Bible teaches that the visible Church of Christ has had and will ever have uninterrupted existence.

Matt. 28, 19-20: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost . . . lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Matt. 16-18: . . . and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

COMMENT: Hence the theory that Christ's Church, which began with Christ, failed - became non-existent for 1000 or more years - and then was revived by either Luther, Calvin, Knox or some other man or woman, is ridiculous and untrue.


VISIBLE UNITY OF THE CHURCH
The Bible teaches that Christ ascribed to his Church qualities and gave to it the names that proved it to be a VISIBLE organization with VISIBLE UNITY among its followers.

Romans 12-5: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Eph. 4-3 to 5-3: Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4. There is ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc.

John 10-16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rom. 12, 4-5: For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office, etc.

John 17-21: That they may be one, as thou Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that (as a consequence) the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

In many places of scripture, Christ's Church is compared to a house, a body, a city built on a mountain, a sheepfold, etc.; but these are all visible things. Hence Christ's Church besides being one spirit is also "One Body." The Catholic Church alone has this two-fold unity. The "invisible" theory is therefore false on the face of it.

COMMENT: Contrast the unity of Faith, Fold and Shepherd in the Catholic Church with the dissenting, contradictory tenets of 400 Protestant organizations and the divinity of the former becomes obvious and certain.

CATHOLICITY OF THE CHURCH
The Bible teaches that from the beginning and in every age the true Church of Christ is all over the world or universal; the Greek word used is "Katholikos," from which the English word "Catholic" is derived.

I believe we’re all aware that the first edition of the Christian Bible was compiled at the council of Nicea under the auspices of the Roman emperor Constantine, who had decided, for basically political reasons, to make Christianity the official religion of Rome (hence, Roman Catholicism):

http://www.deism.com/biblevotes.htm

Quote:
According to Professor John Crossan of Biblical Studies at DePaul University the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (274-337 CE), who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered "holy" and thus "the word God" and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God. Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence. (I wish to thank Brian Show for pointing out in his rebuttal to this article that the final version of the Christian Bible was not voted on at the Council of Nicaea, per se. The Church leaders didn't finish editing the "holy" scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show's first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS - "Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."
Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new "holy scriptures." It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which "holy" books would stay and which would go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

When you read the description of events in the wikipedia text at the link above, you will see how the history of disagreement among sects of Christianity has existed for over 1,500 years. Catholics and Protestants are still killing each other.

s_mocko posted:

The Bible teaches that not the Bible itself, but the Holy Ghost was the teacher of the Apostles.

I agree that the mind of God communicates directly with anyone and everyone who will listen, apart from any organized religion whatsoever. In fact, I've observed that it is members of various organized religions who are the most adament about killing those who disbelieve their version(s) of God and they refer to such non-believers as "infidels". One can just picture the crowds of Muslims, Jews and Christians all running toward each other, guns drawn, yelling, "Kill the infidels!!!"

Jesus and the apostles existed centuries before the Bible was ever compiled under Constantine, and Jesus and the apostles lived decades before any of the new testiment scriptures were ever written... therefore it should be obvious that the Bible itself could not have instructed the apostles.

Based upon the origins and content of the Bible, I see no reason to believe that it is the infallible word of God.

Did the Bible inspire Catholics to engage in such activities as the "Holy" Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and the murder of Protestants in the UK for centuries? Did the Bible inspire the Protestants to kill Catholics? Did the Bible inspire anyone to kill anyone in the name of God? It certainly could not have been the Holy Spirit (or the mind of God) who inspired anyone to commit such atrocities.

Jesus of Nazareth is reported to have recommended loving your enemies... not killing them. Too bad so few have been listening...