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Old 08-12-2004, 03:13 PM
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What is Hell?

I did some more reading on this word and found some interesting information on it. I cut and pasted the following which you will just have to accept as food for thought:



The Authorized King James version of the Bible, and several other

English translations, takes 3 different Greek terms, Hades, Gehenna, and

Tartarus, and mixes them all in a blender (kinda like a Frozen Daiquiri),

and calls them "hell." Perhaps to make them more palletable? Because the

English translations do not make these distinctions, we are not supposed

to either. We are to blindly accept that these three Greek terms are all

the same.

The term Gehenna is a Hebrew term. Literally translated it means

Ravine of Hinnom. It referrs to a valley, just below Jerusalem, where

garbage was burned. The city's offal. Remember, they didn't have

compactors then. They did have garbage dumps, like we do today. It is

translated in the NT 9 times as "hell" and three times as fire. Couldn't

they make up their minds?

Geenna can be referred to as fire, because the garbage that was

dumped there was burned. Now living in a big city like Jerusalem, you can

imagine how much garbage this city could generate. So the fire that burned

all this garbage, was always going, continually. To the citizens of

Jerusalem, this fire was everlasting. Well, at least it seemed that way.

Today, whenever a vagrant's body is found, without identification,

and without any money, the city assigns a "John Doe" identification to

him/her. After the body has been to the city morgue it is burried in a

"Potter's field." These are some of the city services that our tax money

pays for. After all, we can't have dead bodies laying around, can we? In

Jerusalem, the bodies of vagrants and criminals were "burried" in this

Valley of Hinnom referred to as Gehenna. Their bodies were burned in this

garbage pit because these were considered useless citizens. It was

considered a disgrace to be "burried in Gehenna. If it was generally known

that one of your family members was "burried" in Gehenna, well, let's just

say that you would not put that on your resume.

Yes Jesus referred to Gehenna. And He referred to the dishonor of

being "burried" there. Yet there is one more point I would like to make.

In the case of Hades, the Hebrew term Shoel is used throughout the OT. By

the time we come to the NT, it has become a farmilar term. Also, Hades is

mentioned in the Book of Revelations. It's conclusion is documented. This

is not the case with Gehenna. There is no mention of Gehenna in the OT or

in Revelations. It is only used in the NT and mostly by Jesus, though it

is used in the Book of James. This would suggest to me, that this term, or

place, was not part of God's eternal plan. Or that some of the

documentation on Gehenna is missing from our Bibles.

Anyone who believes that the KJV is God's word, would never admit

that some of our Sacred Scriptures were not included in this English

version. But how would they explain Gehenna missing from the OT, or

Revelations? Oh, I know! Interpurtation! Another one of those statements

that start with, "the Bible clearly states."

Gehenna was a garbage pit, a physical place.It was not a realm beyond

the veil. Read the passages relating to Gehenna and you will see this.

This is NOT conclusive proof that there is a "hell." You can follow the

KJV. You can follow religious leaders who teach the doctrine of "hell." Or

you can follow Jesus, and be guided by His Spirit of Truth. But you can't

follow both:



Matt 6:24 (YLT) `None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate

the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the

other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon.

Matt 6:24 (KJS) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the

one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the

other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.



Again, I was able to do this without all the traditional name

calling. Let's not forget what Jesus said about that particular activity:



Matt 5:22 (YLT) but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his

brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may

say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and

whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

Matt 5:22 (KJS) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his

brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever

shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but

whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. {Raca:

that is, Vain fellow}



God grant us all the wisdom to follow in His Son's footprints.

BigD



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Old 08-12-2004, 03:17 PM
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What is Hell?

Apparently, this is a very deep subject. I also found this and thought that is was interesting enough to cut and paste here.



URL: www.scjfaq.org/faq/12-08.html



www.scjfaq.org/faq





Question 12.8:

What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do

Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven?







[Note that this description is derived mostly from the Zohar, a

12th century work that evolved from the mystical writings of R'

Shim'on bar Yochai (2nd century). The Zohar is the central

writing of Kabbalah.]



In general, and in contrast to some other religions, in day-to-day

life Jews don't pay much attention to questions like this. The

focus of Jewish life is living according to G-d's will as expressed

in the Torah. What happens afterwards is up to G-d.



That said, traditional Judaism does address this question. To put

it shortly, our beliefs in resurection and afterlife vary widely.

Some believe it is part of the Messianic era. Some consider it an

era of its own, after the messianic one. It's a matter of debate in

Jewish tradition as to whether the post resurection life is

permanent, or temporary. Nachamides believes that the ultimate

reward, the "World to Come" is that post-resurrection life, and

therefore it must be eternal. Maimonides opines that the ultimate

reward is the relatively direct experience of G-d that a soul can

have when not encumbered with a body and its desires.

Therefore he understands the phrase "World to Come" to refer to

the non-physical existance after life, and that's man ultimate

reward. He returns to that reward after a second, resurrected life.

This is because Maimonides believes it's because man can only

face his judgement in the same condition as when he sinned.

Since he sinned while in a body, he is returned to that body to be

judged. R' Yosef Albo agrees with Maimonides that the post

resurrection life isn't permanent. To be specific, he believes that

the lifespan will be 1,000 years -- the length of time Adam would

have lived after eating from the forbidden fruit (had he not given

away 70 years for someone else). His reason for this second life,

though, is very different. Albo writes in the Ikkarim

(Fundamentals) that in this life, man masters the art of

self-perfection in the face of adversity -- disease, threat of

poverty, and everything else that could go wrong in life. In the

next life, the only challenges are internal, there will be no external

impediments. It's therefore a second step in personal

development, allowing for more refinement in one's ability to

enjoy the World to Come upon return. In the early 20th century,

Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (cheif Rabbi of British Mandate

Palestine) wrote that the resurection occurs by the end of the

illusion that separates this universe from heaven.



Now, for the more mystical explanation. Keep in mind that there

are dissenting viewpoints, though this is the dominant one.



A living person consists of both body and soul. Both are complex

in structure and this short answer can't possibly address the

details. To summarize briefly, when the body dies, if the person

merits it, a small portion of the soul remains with it to keep it

connected with the soul's source, anticipating the general revival

of the dead at the time that G-d decrees. Different parts of the

remainder of the soul may go to different places. One might be

reincarnated into a new body in an attempt to rectify another of

its spiritual aspects, or for other purposes. One part might go to a

level of Paradise. Another might go to Gehinnom for a period, to

remove the sins of that life and prepare it for a future one.

Another part might join temporarily with an already living person,

to assist it with its rectification and in the process gather more

merit. The reassignments of the soul continues until the time that

G-d decrees.



Rabbinic afterlife teachings varied in different places and times,

and was never synthesized into one coherent philosophy. As

such, the different descriptions of the afterlife are not always

consistent with each other. This is especially true for the

descriptions of "Olam Haba", the world to come. In some

rabbinic works this phrase refers to the messianic era, a physical

realm right here on Earth. However, in other works this phrase

means Gan Edan, Paradise (in Heaven, so to speak), a purely

spiritual realm. At various points in the afterlife journey, the soul

is said to encounter:



Hibbut ha-kever, the pains of the grave



Dumah, the angel of silence



The angel of death



The Kaf ha-Kela, the catapult of the soul



Gehenna (purgatory) and Gan Eden (Heaven; Paradise)



A discussion of the classic rabbinic view of the afterlife, including

these topics and more, can be found in an essay by Rabbi

Zalman Schacter Shalomi called "Life in the hereafter: A tour of

what's to come", found at

http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk/index-page13.html.



Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is

sometimes translated as "hell", but Jews must take note that the

Christian version of hell is different from the Jewish view of

Gehenna. Some Christians believe that hell is an abode of eternal

torment where sinners go, and is also for anyone who does not

accept Jesus as their messiah and G-d. Other Christians believe

Hell is a place of separation from G-d (which, for Christians, is

torture enough), from which believers are eventually saved by

Jesus. Roman Catholics believe that Hell is a place of eternal

suffering—physical, mental and spiritual suffering. In the Roman

Catholic view of Hell, the physical pain is constant and severe;

but the worst torture of Hell is the knowledge that they will never

see G-d and that they will remain in Hell for eternity. For Roman

Catholics, Hell is permanent and eternal. For Roman Catholics,

the soul that has deliberately and knowingly disobeyed G-d's

commandments in life and that remains in a state of mortal sin

upon death has through it's own free will damned itself to Hell for

all eternity. Roman Catholics also have the notion of Purgatory,

which is for souls that are truly repentant, but not in the state of

grace upon death. Purgatory is similar to Hell in that there is

physical suffering, the Roman Catholic belief is that the soul will

return to G-d when it is purged of its sins. Purgatory can last a

day or thousands of years depending on the amount of purging

the individual soul requires.



However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly

unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought

maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest

that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual

forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan

Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [In this

sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory,

however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom

(lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's

experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as

gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the

perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other.



In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan

Eden there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine

treasury of souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the

bundle of life. This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls,

in the highest spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are

said to come from this treasury, and they return they at some

point after death.



Souls are said to originate in a realm called the 'guf' (Avodah

Zarah 5a, Nedarim 13b, Yevamot 62a), from which they descend

to the earthly real to animate human bodies. After death, these

souls return to the otzar, or tzror ha-hayyim. (Shabbat 152a;

Pesikta Rabbati 2:3)



According to the Kabbalah [Jewish mysticism] every human has

at least one element in their soul; with the proper study a person

can eventually develop two higher levels of the soul. A common

way of explaining the three parts of the soul is as follows:



1.Nefesh - the lower part, or animal part, of the soul. Is

linked to instincts and bodily cravings.



2.Ruach - the middle soul, the spirit. It contains the moral

virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.



3.Neshamah - the higher soul, or super-soul. This separates

man from all other lifeforms. It is related to the intellect,

and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This

part of the soul is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike

at birth. It allows one to have some awareness of the

existence and presence of G-d.



The "Raaya Meheimna," a later addition to the Zohar,

posits that there are in fact two more parts of the human

soul, the chayyah and yehidah. These parts were

considered to represent the sublimest levels of intuitive

cognition, and were only within the grasp of very few

individuals.



4.Chayyah - The part of the soul that allows one to have an

awareness of the divine life force itself.



5.Yehidad - the highest plane of the soul, in which one can

achieve as full a union with G-d as is possible.



According to the Zohar, after death each aspect of the soul

undergoes a different experience on the afterlife journey. The

lower levels of the soul are purified and purged of physical and

emotional attachments, while the higher levels experience

transcendental bliss. The nefesh temporarily remains with the

body in the grave, undergoing the Hibbut Ha-Kever, the suffering

of the grave. Simultaneously, the Ruach experiences Gehenna for

12 months. "Gehenna is conceived of as a purification process in

which the psychic remnants from the previous life are purged and

transformed. This purgation process lasts only twelve months and

is tormentingly painful in direct proportion to each individual's

lived life experience. [Simcha Paull-Rapahel ] After leaving

Gehenna, the ruah then permanently enters the Lower Gan Eden.



After death the Neshama, since it not subject to being tainted by

sin, goes to Gan Eden Elyon, the Upper Gan Eden, where it

experiences divine reward and bliss. The hayyah and yehidah

also return to Upper Gan Eden immediately after death, and

become as one with G-d as is possible. "Those who have

awakened these dimensions of their being are able to perceive the

infinite grandeur of the divine realms, to enter the everflowing

celestial stream - described by the Zoha as the "bundle of life".

[Paull-Rapahel]



Given all this, what happens to the soul of the nonbeliever? The

most common belief in contemporary traditional Jewish

communities is that all souls go to the after-life. Nearly all,

barring a handful or two in all of human history, eventually end

up in Gan Eden (roughly: heaven), even non-believers.

Maimonides (a medieval Jewish thinker) opined that

non-believers cease to exist upon death. His reasoning was that

the ability to exist eternally is G-d's, and is only acquired by the

soul to the extent that the soul knows of, and therefore shares

some of the form of, G-d. This opinion was more popular in the

midevil period, but no longer captures much attention, since

around the early 19th century. At that time, the Chassidic and

Mussar movements influenced Orthodox thought. The Aristotilian

influence of the medieval thinkers like Maimonides faded in favor

of other, equally old, approaches to the problem. All of these

notions have roots in the Talmud (our earliest written rabbinic

texts) and earlier. It is just a matter of which approach to G-d

from within that tradition people follow. [Note: While you may

have heard of Chassidim, there are few if any Mussarists left

post-WWII. It was an Orthodox movement based on personality

improvement and stressed the inter-personal commandments.]

--------------------
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:10 PM
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What is Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE
. . .I can only determine that the "Lake of Fire" is an "eternal" flame and that souls will be thrown into it for a "space in time".

I will research the verb tenses & participles



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Old 08-14-2004, 08:54 PM
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What is Hell?

weishaupt,



Yeah, I'd appreciate that. Might as well parce it out and see what ya think... right?



I haven't had a chance to read those big long posts above... but I'll get to 'em as soon as I have a chance.



It would be nice to NOT HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO DO! Know what I mean?



Ice
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Old 08-14-2004, 11:00 PM
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What is Hell?

<font color=Black>[b]<BLOCKQUOTE>Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. </BLOCKQUOTE>



This is what I've Got so Far for the phrase, FOREVER & EVER

Check Out ThisLINK

<BLOCKQUOTE><U>for </U>* [1519] * eis * into, unto, to, towards, for, among</BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, when eis is used of time, it "denotes entrance into a period, which, is penetrated, as it were, i.e. duration through a time . . .dawning into or towards

<BLOCKQUOTE><U>ever</U> [165] * aion<U> and ever:</U> [165] *aion

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2) the worlds, universe

3) period of time, age

</BLOCKQUOTE>

Check it out HERE

When scrolling down the many verses aion is used in, you will see that it is used to describe eternity exclusively when the english phrase "forever & ever" is used

So far, to me I see in combining the Greek Words, <BLOCKQUOTE>"the smoke of their torment" ascends into the air for the "duration into, unto, to, towards, for, among" an eternal age., i.e. eternal torment.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Respectfully Submitted

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Old 08-15-2004, 01:46 AM
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What is Hell?

Okay... now here's what I'm gonna have to do... I'm gonna have to go to my basement and dig through all my boxes of notes and such and find that particular issue which I had tackled years back. When I find that which I had discovered which led to my belief... I'll get it up here for ya.



Then we can take the discussion further.



Any input from others is welcome.



Ice

P.S. don't look for my post too soon... I'm still a busy guy and it may take some time to find my notes -- you wouldn't believe what a pack rat I am!
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:40 PM
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What is Hell?

This really is a deep subject but I think the cut and pasted stuff I left speaks for itself.



The OT was written by living people not dead people living in "Hell" with first hand experience of their "Smoke of Torment".



What is "Smoke of Torment" anyway? There is so much figurative language to sift through. Not only that, it was written in Hebrew and translated. How do you effectively translate figurative language. Try translating figurative expressions from English to Spanish and see if the exact meaning is carried over.



Here is the way I understand it in a nutshell. Whether it is right or wrong.....who knows?



If we go back to before the fall and picture the human race as being a branch on the tree of creation connected to the Creator and receiving it's lifeforce directly from Him, then we picture the branch being cut off because of Adam's sin. I would imagine that the branch would wither and die after a period of time. That is unless, someone who was without sin would step up and die in it's place and persuade the Creator to allow the branch to be grafted back on to the main tree.



Why would a loving Father force his own creation to live forever in torment for the sins of their ancestors yet? I was created with original sin. I am a sinner because I am created that way. I am cut off already. I am cut off from "knowledge" even. Jesus even says so.



The Father would have to see the torment constantly without cease. Why would He do this? The only thing that makes sense is that separtation from the lifeforce of the main tree produces permanent death after a period of time.



Not only that....what do any of us know of eternity? We can only imagine.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:16 PM
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What is Hell?

[color=black][b] The writings you pasted are all based on rabbinical writings that started with the Kabballah(oral tradition of Babylonian witchcraft) which then morphed into the written Talmud. Rabbis then & now consider those writings more authoritative than the Torah & the Prophets. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees & Sanhedrin for doing so all through the Gospels.

It seems to me that you are citing occultic, Babylonian teachings as your base for this discussion instead of the Holy Scriptures with a concordance.



Do you believe that the Triune Godhead promised to preserve His teachings & records regarding the Messiah/King/Redeemer supernaturally throughout time inPSALM 12:6,7 & in MATT24:35



Do you believe that promise was broken or duty was breached?

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Old 08-16-2004, 11:40 AM
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What is Hell?

This might help.....

Eternal Death (Eastons Bible Dictionary)

The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express

(1.) the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26);

(2.) of Christ (Rev. 1:18);

(3.) of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 9:14); and

(4.) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 6).

Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: “Fire that shall not be quenched” (Mark 9:45, 46), “fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), “the worm that never dies,” the “bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), “the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever” (Rev. 14:10, 11).

The idea that the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.

The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men to repentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” (Heb. 10:26, 27).



ages

aionios, Greek 166, Strong’s

aionios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from Greek 165 (aion); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).



aion, Greek 165, Strong’s

aion, ahee-ohn'; from the same as Greek 104 (aei); properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future) :- age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare Greek 5550 (chronos).





same word used in

[5] There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Rev. 22:5 (NKJV)



so if the word is used to describe our eternal life with God, then it must mean eternal punishment for those whom don't know God.
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Old 08-17-2004, 06:28 PM
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What is Hell?

I meant the first cut and paste mainly which is an explanation of the terms used to describe "Hell". The other cut and paste was just interesting since the OT was written by Jews.



Here are some verses to consider:



John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."



It says "perish" not "burn in hell". For instance, food that is perishable ceases to be after a period of time. It does not burn in hell.



A branch that is cut off of a tree perishes.



Revelation 20:5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"



This verse speaks of the unsaved. Why doesn't it say that the rest of the dead burned in hell until the thousand years were finished?





Of course we have:



Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



But here, death does not mean death. Hmmm even though the above quote indicates the unsaved are laying in their graves.



Revelation 20:14,15,

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Here we see a distinction between Hell and the Lake of Fire. Here Hell itself is being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I thought you said that the Lake of Fire was Hell or was in Hell.



I'm out of time for now. I will try to add more to this post.







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