The Free Gift

[weishaupt1776]

The Following is an e-mail exchange with my Dad regarding salvation by faith alone versus salvation with human effort mixed in with it.



DAD"S EMAIL Answer me one question, if, while sincerely believing that Christ is the Son of God and that He died to save all men from sin, I commit adultery, cheat my business partners, abuse the poor, dishonor my parents, curse, drink to excess, take drugs, and maybe even commit murder, will I get to heaven regardless?

Don't answer me with a barrage of scriptural quotations, but in your own words, please.

By the way, if you are worried that I don't believe in the divinity of Christ, stop worrying. I do. The difference between me, a practicing Roman Catholic, and many Fundamentalist Christians is this: I think that my faith REQUIRES me to act in accordance with its tenets, and to do penance when I fail; that a Christian faith that is not demonstrated by Christian deeds is a hollow, meaningless faith, that it is indeed hypocrisy.


I'll give you a concrete example. What if I met a beautiful, sultry woman who made no secret of her desire to spend the next couple of nights with me. Now suppose I gave in and slept with her, violating not only the 6th commandment but also betraying the woman I love, would not God hold that against me? Are you saying that I could have f!@#(censorship mine) her brains out and suffer no consequences in the Hereafter merely because I believe in Christ? That strikes me as a license to do as you damn well please.



Webster's defines a gift as "Something given to show friendship, affection or support." Reward is "Something given in return for good, or, sometimes, evil, or for service of merit."



So, my interpretation is this: Christ gave his (human) life to show his love for us, but we MUST accept that gift by doing our utmost to behave as He would want us to. If we don't, we are only saying we believe in Him, but we are not showing that we do, nor do we show our love for Him. In so many words, to not act in accordance with one's faith is to deny one's faith, no matter how much you proclaim that faith with your lips.



I await your reply. Dad.

MY REPLY(with much prayer before, during, & after in the mighty name of the Messiah)I accept your message for value, and return it for value with a reply to your question beginning with ,



" IF while SINCERELY believing . . . I commit adultery , etc . . ."
Based on the hypothetical nature of the question beginning with "IF" , I will too operate within that framework. IF the person conducting his affairs in the manner you described while SINCERELY believing at the same time would lead one to conclude reasonably that the belief WASN'T SINCERE. That's exactly what James addresses in Chapter 2 which contains the faith without works verses. Remember the very first verse of that chapter sets up the context with ,

" IF a man SAYS he has faith . . ." & DOES NOT say "if a man HAS faith".



King David violated all ten commandments , alone, in the situation with Bathsheba. His contrition for his deeds are recorded particularly in Psalm 119. But his repentance alone isn't what justified him from sin. It was his faith which prompted him to say ,

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in NO WAY impute sin."



So, David's faith in the end turned out to be sincere all along - He had the sense to respond to God's will & not his.



Your question ending with [quote]". . . will I still get to heaven?"



First of all, the question is,"What are God's requirements to "get to Heaven" ? A perfect righteousness without any sin nature whatsoever is the answer. God the Father cannot allow anyone with a sin nature in His prescence because their sin condemned flesh would be destroyed by His indescribable presence. Moses wasn't allowed to see the Father because he would've been destroyed by the Father's holy presence. God the Father is referred to as an "All Consuming Fire". Jesus said no man has seen the Father except Him.

Since we are born with a sin nature, we automatically do wrong right out of the gate. Christ credits(imputes) His perfect nature on to our account which replaces our sin nature IN THE EYES OF GOD. It is only His perfection that is allowed to exist in the eternal kingdom. If we've ever broken just ONE of the commandments, we are guilty of eternal punishment. We cannot get rid of the sin nature we were born with by helping old ladies across the street, working in the soup line, etc... We need an entirely new nature GIVEN to us because we are all guilty of having to pay the wages of sin, so eternal life has to be offered as a GIFT since we can't eradicate it ourselves.

PLEASE JUMP TO THREAD 3 for the continuation.

[iamfreeru2]

AMEN Brother!!!!



iamfreeru2

[weishaupt1776]

Your next statement:

"Webster's defines a gift as "Something given to show friendship, affection or support." Reward is "Something given in return for good, or, sometimes, evil, or for service of merit."


The Bible says,

" the GIFT of God is eternal life" & does not say "the reward of God is eternal life"

Later we will see that there is a Biblical distinction between a reward & a gift in direct relation to salvation doctrine. One must have the righteousness of God given to them as a gift .

Romans 5 says

". . . the free GIFT is not like the transgression. . .

. . . the free GIFT ; from many transgressions resulting in justification.

. . . those who receive . . . the GIFT of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

How can one work for a free gift? If Christ's perfect righteousness is a gift, how can it be obtained through merit or effortt? The Bible declares Eternal life to be a gift, not a reward. You're understanding of eternal life being a reward is based on an incorrect presumption.

This passage in Romans 4 :

" What shall we say then that Abraham our father ACCORDING TO FLESH has found?

For if Abraham has been justified on the principle of works, he has whereof to boast: but not before God;

for what does the scripture say? And Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now to him that works the REWARD IS NOT RECKONED AS OF GRACE, but of debt."

It is clear that the righteousness is credited to us by God , if righteousness was a reward, that would mean that He would OWE us something. Dad, are you going to go before Christ on judgment day on the presumption that He owes you something because of your efforts?

Here's another passage regarding reward in I Cor 3

"If the work of any one which he has built upon [the foundation shall abide, he shall receive a reward.

If the work of any one shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved, but so as through [the] fire."

The reward system regards how true believers (not the ones who "said" they believed as in James 2) conducted their life when they became a believer. The verse above is preceded by calling the foundation Christ himself. The works I did before Christ were not built on His foundation but on my foundation which is doomed. The works I do that are ordained by Him merit rewards that I will enjoy for eternity because I have previously RECEIVED his Gift of eternal life.

Your next statement:

"The difference between me, a practicing Roman Catholic, and many Fundamentalist Christians is this: I think that my faith REQUIRES me to act in accordance with its tenets, and to do penance when I fail . . "

So called Fundamentalist Christians teach other verses in the Bible regarding discipleship such as living a life that is worthy of the calling of Christ, not using grace as an occasion for the flesh, denying yourself, picking up your Cross daily, etc.. In the many messages I have heard by "fundamentalist" believers I have never heard from the pulpit or off that one is not REQUIRED to act in accordance with the tenets of the Bible or repent on a daily basis. How about this, each time you hear a "fundamentalist" give advice in the manner you described in your above quote, write a tally mark & see how many we get.

Your next statement:

". . .that a Christian faith that is not demonstrated by Christian deeds is a hollow, meaningless faith, that it is indeed hypocrisy." [/quote]

[b] Paul talks ad-nauseum about phony believers who "believed in vain" , meaning they were never saved to begin with.

The apostle John sums up this point in I JN 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

I challenge anyone to find any ambiguity or open ended philosophy in that verse!

" . . .Christ gave his (human) life to show his love for us,"

[b]>>definitely

" . . . but we MUST accept that gift by doing our utmost to behave as He would want us to."

I believe a more Biblical statement would be that "doing our utmost to behave as He would want us to" SHOWS that we have accepted that gift of eternal life.

". . .If we don't, we are only saying we believe in Him, but we are not showing that we do, nor do we show our love for Him. In so many words, to not act in accordance with one's faith is to deny one's faith, no matter how much you proclaim that faith with your lips." [/quote]

[b]>>The above statement is 100% true in the sense of taking a moral inventory of ourselves for spiritual growth. The Apostle Paul challenges believers to constantly check their faith.

Here's an analogy (analogies are incomplete & are by no means all encompassing) for the sake of illustrating just the concept of our sin debt that was paid in full.

You have accrued 10 million dollars in debt. There is no amount of work in this lifetime you could do to pay it back. By law, if you default, you will be imprisoned for life because of the extreme amount. One of the bank's owners sends a co-owner to accept your 10 million dollar liability & pay it off in full. The only stipulation is that you must believe that it was accomplished by the co-owner & you will be granted free membership & seen as a member in right standing as a gift for trusting in the bank's method of redeeming your debt.

The Bible says that " His ways are higher than our ways & that there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death"

Listen to the chilling words of Christ regarding people that were trusting in their works "In HIS name for salvation :

Mat 7:21 Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied through *thy* name, and through thy* name cast out demons, and through thy name done many works of power? and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

Look at what Christ said the work of God is (Jn 6:28):

Then said they unto him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? " Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We don't have a second chance after we die, Dad., "it is appointed ONCE for man to die then after this, the judgment." Believe that your sin debt was paid in full - Don't make the choice to pay for them yourself. Receive eternal life as a gift & accept the righteousness of Christ to be put on your account instead of showing up in Heaven with your own self-righteousness before a just & Holy God.



END OF EXCHANGE