Interesting Lazarus/Rich Man interpretation

[weishaupt1776]

[color=black][b] I'll be liftin' it up to the most high, crucified, resurrected, & ascended Messiah, Brother.

Also, fellow Sui Jurists, keep IMFREE"S(I did his name in all CAP"S just to rib him) - Keep imfree's Sept. 17 apoointment with the judge lifted up.

[iamfreeru2]

weis,



Thank you brother for lifting me up. Please lift my brother up as well. Has bad heart and been in the hospital since Saturday.



KT,



Back to the matter at hand.



How can any one cease to exist till they are resurrected. And does "fallen asleep" mean to not exist? Does a body cease to exist when it is dead? When Jesus died did he cease to exist? If your answer is yes please show in God's word where this is said to be true.



Show me from God's word that Lazarus ceased to exist. If you are speaking of Lazarus in the story about Lazarus and the Rich Man, it says that Lazarus was comforted. How can one that has ceased to exist be comforted? Also please prove this to be a parrable and not an actual happening?



Psalm 16:10 says: "For Thou wilt not abandone my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay." Why is it referring to the soul in one instance and the body in another. This verse clearly states that souls go to Sheol, which is where Lazarus went to await the Messiah and His bodily resurrection. Once Christ went to heaven the Scriptures say He took captive a host of captives (Eph 4:8) Revelation 1:18 says: "I have the keys of death and of Hades." The keys denote the authority of Christ over physical death and Hades, the place which temporarily holds the immaterial part of the unbeliever between death and the ultimate casting into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).



Also forgive me for asking your interpretation of 1 Cor 5:8, as I meant 2 Cor 5:8. How would you interpret that? Anther question for you is: Can God contardict Himself? If He can then His word is not true. Could it be your misunderstanding of what is meant by certain passages.



Tell me how you would take the meaning of the followiing? Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are <u>unable to kill the soul</u>; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell." This Scripture says that the soul does not die. How do you explian this?



More food for thought.



iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

You wrote:



1. How can any one cease to exist till they are resurrected. And does "fallen asleep" mean to not exist? Does a body cease to exist when it is dead? When Jesus died did he cease to exist? If your answer is yes please show in God's word where this is said to be true.



If they are not resurrected, they continue in the grave. We can't talk to them, they don't get up and go to work anymore. Their body turns to dust. To me, it is reasonable to believe that they have ceased to exist.



FALLEN ASLEEP - dead until resurrected



Please note the "UNTIL RESURRECTED" part please. I have said this over and over.



When Jesus died, he died... period. If He didn't die then he couldn't pay our sin debt which was DEATH i.e. PARISH. He was resurrected on the third day. If you are not dead then there is no need to be resurrected.



2. Show me from God's word that Lazarus ceased to exist. If you are speaking of Lazarus in the story about Lazarus and the Rich Man, it says that Lazarus was comforted. How can one that has ceased to exist be comforted? Also please prove this to be a parrable and not an actual happening?



I specifically said Lazarus (Jesus Friend) why would I be talking about the Lazarus of the Rish Man story? Of course I was talking about the Lazarus that was resurrected. We are talking about Going Heaven vs Fallen Asleep. Also, no one can prove that the Rich Man story was true or not. You can only offer reasons to believe either way.



3. Psalm 16:10 as well as all of the psalms are songs and poems written by David. These are David's words and not God's words. The songs are to God from David. Why would God sing to Himself?



Ephesians 4:8

"This is why it says:"When he ascended on high,

he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."



The captives here would be the slaves of sin and Satan. The gifts to men are many.



Your point?



Revelation 1:18

"I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."



We would have to track down the exact meaning for Hades here since it is an interpretation. However, the discussion is about the verses that describe "Falling Asleep" instead of saying "Gone to Heaven". We should stay on point.



Revelation 20:14

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."



Not sure what your point is here but this brings up an interesting point. How can souls suffer in Hell for eternity when we can see right here that Hell doesn't even doesn't last for eternity?



4. 2 Corinthians 5:8

"Do you suppose a few ruts in the road or rocks in the path are going to stop us? When the time comes, we'll be plenty ready to exchange exile for homecoming."



This is interesting. Of course, I have no idea what he means exactly. I can only imagine really. I guess he's saying something to the effect that he is glad that he will receive eternal life instead of parishing. He is confident that he will receive the gift of eternal life so the problems he faces in life don't seem so hard to endure.



5. Can God contradict Himself?



The simple answer is no but I never believed otherwise.



There are many versions of the Bible. Are you saying that every version is the exact word of God? Why do you believe that every word in every Bible is actually God's own words? The only time we can say that the words in the Bible are God's own words are when they are preceded by "Thus Sayeth the Lord" God only spoke through his Prophets. He gave them authority to speak for him. There is a lot of the Bible that is Jewish history that is written by the scribes of the temple.



6. Tell me how you would take the meaning of the followiing? Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell." This Scripture says that the soul does not die. How do you explian this?



This is interesting too. The "Hell" here is translated from the Greek Gehenna (the burning trashpile in the valley of Hinom). Why would an immaterial soul be thrown into an earthly fire and be expecting to be destroyed?



Give the text below a read. It is all about this particular verse.



Start Quote:

Jesus is not here saying that the soul cannot die, as he goes on to say: "but fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna," using the fiery valley outside the walls of Jerusalem as a symbol of destruction. Nor is Jesus contradicting the entire body of scripture in this regard, which over and over states that the soul dies, can be destroyed, speaks of dead souls, etc. The body is not the soul, but it is a component of the

soul.



The soul is made up the body and the spirit (or breath) of life from God. (Genesis 2:7) When one dies the soul dies [ceases to be a living sentiency] and the original life process is reversed. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) With the life-giving source departed from the body, the soul sentiency] ceases to exist.



For those who are not familiar with the Biblical teaching that the soul dies and is not immortal, we give the following: Using the King James Version with marginal references: The soul dies: Job 36:14 (margin); Psalm 56:13; 78:50; 116:8; Ezekiel 18:4, 20; James 5:20. The dead soul is not alive: Psalm 22:29; 30:3; 33:18, 19; Isaiah 55:3; Ezekiel 13:19; 18:27. The dead soul ceases: Psalm 49:8. The wicked soul is destroyed: Psalm 35:17; 40:14;

Proverbs 6:32; Ezekiel 22:27; Matthew 10:28; Acts 3:23; James 4:12. The wicked soul is consumed: Isaiah 10:18. The wicked soul is devoured: Ezekiel 22:25. The wicked soul perishes: Matthew 16:25, 26 (the Greek word for soul is here translated life). The wicked soul is cut off: Leviticus 22:3; Numbers 15:30.



There are many more scriptures in the Hebrew that show that the soul is not immortal. This cannot be seen in most translations, however, since the word for soul is often substituted by "creature", "body", etc.



However, getting back to Jesus' statement: The above scripture does not apply to everyone, but only to the believers. Those who put faith in Jesus are counted as alive in God's sight in view of the resurrection [not immortal soul] promises. This is shown in Luke 20:34-38, where in speaking of the resurrection, Jesus says: "For he is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to him." See also: Romans 4:5,22-25; 5:1,18; 6:11.



Further, and again speaking of the day when the righteous will be raised, Jesus said



John6:54): "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."



Now if one, after having this life reckoned to him through faith in the blood of Jesus, and partaking of the holy spirit -- powers of the age to come, turns away from this faith, he will lose the life he had obtained through that faith, for there is no longer any more sacrifice for sins left. (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26)



Such a person would go into the second death, for which there is no ransom sacrifice provided. Thus Jesus, in speaking to his disciples, said the above statement as a warning. No human can take away our life -- soul -- that has been made alive in God's sight. Only God himself can do this by destroying our soul as new creatures.



Something else we might note here: Gehenna is not a symbol of the eternal roasting theory, for Jesus speaks not only of the soul being thrown into his valley, but also of fleshly bodies. In a different setting Jesus speaks similarly of the fleshly body being thrown into the fires of Gehenna. -- Matthew 5:29,30.



Christian love,

Ronald



End Quote





Hmm here is something that stuck out to me....



John6:54): "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."



Why doesn't Jesus say "I will raise his body up at the last day"? He says "him" this adds support to my belief that we lie in our graves as a "whole" "composit" body until He raises us up at the last day.



Man I tell ya. This is exhausting but interesting.



I love ya man!!



KT

[iamfreeru2]

KT,



You are telling me that if I shoot you dead your soul is dead. This is against the teachings of God's word. Yes every true translation is the word of God. Now I said any true translation. All of the Bible is written by God.



2 Peter 1: 21 says: "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Timothy 3: 16 says: All Scripture is inspired by God." You know the rest of that verse and I have already quoted it. Inspired by God means God breathed. There is no error in it. 2 Corinthians 5:8 says when we die we are absent from the body and at home with the Lord. Matthew 10: 28 says that man cannot kill our soul, therefore no soul ceases to exist. I will stand on what God's word says. I will leave you to your interpretation. I cannot convince you otherwise. Only God can do the convincing so we will just agree to disagree. I have no doubt about what God's word is saying and where I am headed when I leave this body. Thank you for the discussion on this subject.



In Christ,

iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

You're welcome.



Oh, one thing in respect to your last post.



To me, "inspired" by God is different than "written by God".

[iamfreeru2]

KT,



The definition of Inspired by God is God breathed. If He breathed it it the same as if He wrote it.



iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

Hmm I disagree.

[iamfreeru2]

I figured you would, but that is okay.

[KaosTheory]

LOL!! I still love ya man!!