Interesting Lazarus/Rich Man interpretation

[KaosTheory]

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man



The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is often presented as Bible "proof" that good people go to heaven and bad people go to a "hell" where they are tormented by fire. It is tempting to jump to this conclusion, but the parable actually has a different meaning or message altogether. First, here is the text of the parable, as found in Luke 16:19-31:



There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



Note that nothing was said about Abraham being in heaven: people often just assume that Abraham is in heaven in the parable, but the parable does not say so. In fact Jesus said in John 3:13 that "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man..." Actually all of the Old Testament faithful, including Abraham, Moses, David and the prophets are still in their graves. The apostle Peter mentioned this in regard to David, saying: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day... For David is not ascended into the heavens..." (Acts 2:29 and 34). Other verses such as Daniel 12:2, Acts 13:36, Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 and Job 3:13-19 give further evidence that the Old Testament "saints" are not in heaven but remain in their graves, awaiting their resurrection. If we assume the parable shows that Abraham is in heaven, then the Bible would seem to be contradicting itself. On the other hand, if Abraham is still in his grave as the other scriptures indicate, then what is the parable about?



Fortunately some of the details provided in the parable give clues to its true meaning. In the parable Abraham called the rich man his son, and the rich man had five brothers. Now these might seem to be meaningless details, but they are not: they help identify who the rich man represents in the parable. When Jesus gave the parable He was speaking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees were Jews, who were the descendants of Judah, one of the twelve sons of Jacob from whom issued the twelve tribes of Israel. Judah was descended from - therefore a son of - Abraham by Isaac and Jacob... and Judah had five brothers by Jacob's first wife Leah. Genesis 35:22-26 lists the five brothers, and the other six half-brothers:



... Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: 23. The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob’s firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: 24. The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: 25. And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel’s handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: 26. And the sons of Zilpah, Leah’s handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padanaram.



So we see that the rich man could symbolize Judah - the Jews - in the parable. If that's the case, then do the other points in the parable make any sense? For example, why was the rich man rich? And who was Lazarus, and why was he in poverty outside the rich man's gates? And why did they change places? And what was the significance of Lazarus going to Abraham's bosom, while the rich man was in torments? And what was the message of the parable?



Why was the rich man - symbolizing the Jews - rich? The Jews had something no other people had: a covenant with God, with the special promises - blessings - which that covenant provided. That covenant was originally made with all twelve tribes of Israel; in Jesus time only the Jews remained in the covenant. No other people had the covenant and blessings available to them. The original blessings are listed in Deuteronomy 28, which begins with the following description:



And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2. And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. 3. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. 4. Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 5. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store...



So we see that the Jews were "rich" because they had a covenant with God, with promised blessings. Who does Lazarus symbolize in the parable? Lazarus symbolizes the Gentiles, who were excluded from the covenant. The Gentiles were in poverty, relatively speaking, owing to the fact that God's covenant and blessings were not available to them... yet. They were outside the rich man's "gate," so to speak, "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table." The covenant and its blessings were only available to the "rich man" - the Jews - to whom Jesus addressed the parable.



When Lazarus died in the parable, he next appeared at Abraham's bosom, meaning that he became a very close or special friend of Abraham. To lean on another's chest or bosom was, in their time, indicative of a close friendship. An example of this was the relationship between the apostle John and Jesus: John 13:23 recounts that "Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved."



Now, what was the significance of the death of Lazarus, and his appearance as a special friend of Abraham? Lazarus' death signified a change in the Gentiles' status with God: a covenant was made available to them, made possible by the sacrificial death and resurrection to eternal life of Jesus. The terms of the new covenant are summarized in John 3:16:



For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Why are the Gentiles (those who are true Christians) shown in the parable to be bosom friends of Abraham? Because they have the same belief or faith in God that Abraham had. Through faith the Gentiles can attain the righteousness of Abraham; they spiritually have bosom closeness with Abraham as indicated in the parable. The apostle Paul described Abraham's faith, and showed that Christians are righteous because they have faith like Abraham's:



He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21. And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:20-25)



We have seen that Lazarus' death symbolized a change in the Gentiles' relationship with God: a covenant was made available for them. The rich man's death also signified a change for the Jews: the parable showed that their covenant with God would be put aside, leaving them "in torments," seeing "Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." The Jews would no longer be a special nation to God, "on high above all nations of the earth." The Gentiles who had faith would be God's people instead. In the parable Abraham reminded rich man saying "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." "Tormented" in this verse is translated from the Greek word odunao, which means mentally grieved or anguished: the opposite of "comforted." It does not mean physical pain, as many assume.



The apostle Paul wrote about the Jews', and all Israel's, fall from their covenant with God: "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" (Romans 11:11). The Jews "stumbled" owing to their disobedience and disbelief. That stumbling made way for a covenant to be established with the Gentiles; Paul wrote to the Romans: "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief" (Romans 11:30).



What was the "great gulf" that was between Lazarus and the rich man - between the Gentiles and the Jews? Physically, one who was born a Jew could not become a Gentile, and vice versa. Spiritually, it is faith that separates the Jews from the believing Gentiles. Without faith the Jews could neither attain the righteousness of Abraham nor adhere to the covenant made available by Christ. Furthermore a spiritual "blindness" has fallen over the Jews until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Paul commented on this several times. Here are examples:



For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)



But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. (2 Cor. 3:14,15)



The parable concludes with Abraham telling the rich man "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Here Jesus was telling the Pharisees that their disbelief in the scriptures would not change even if they saw someone rise from the dead, as the scriptures promised would happen. Jesus was, of course, referring to His own promised resurrection: Psalm 16:10 prophesied that His soul - His body or self - would not be left in hell - the grave:



For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.



Jesus used the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to show that the Jews were about to lose their place as God's chosen people, and be replaced by those who had not been favored before: the Gentiles who believed. Unfortunately many have assumed the parable is a message about good people going to heaven and the wicked going to a hell where they are tormented by fire... even though heaven, good, evil and judgment are not even mentioned in the parable. The final setting for the rich man, in a hell where he was tormented by fire, was purposely taken from the popular and pagan beliefs of the time. Jesus knew the Pharisees would recognize this and then look for a deeper, symbolic meaning in the parable. Paradoxically, most professing Christians today do not recognize the setting as pagan because so many pagan beliefs have been assimilated into modern "Christian" doctrine.



Jesus gave numerous other parables on the same theme, showing that the Jews were about to lose their place to the Gentiles who would believe. Here is one of the other parables:



There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34. And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:33-46)

[iamfreeru2]

KT,



I know that the teachings I hear and from my own reading of Luke 16 is that the rich man has not been spoken of as being in Heaven or resurrected. In this the Rich man is in Hades (NT) or Sheol (OT) on the torment side while Lazarus is in Hades or Sheol on the comfort side. Lazarus is awaiting the Messiah to have his spirit taken to heaven and is being comforted by Abraham. I know of no Pastor that teaches any different.



In John 3:13 you must put it into context. Jesus had not been crucified yet. He was talking to Nicodemus when He said these things. None but Christ was able to reveal to us the will of God for our salvation. Nicodemus addressed Christ as a prophet; but he must know that he is greater than all the Old-Testament prophets, for none of them had ascended into heaven. They wrote by divine inspiration, and not of their own knowledge. Christ was speaking that which he had first hand knowledge.



The OT verses you quote are not relevant, because they are in the OT. Jesus had not even come to reath when these were written. The OT saints were still in Sheol awaiting the Messiah. When Christ was resurrected he led captive a host of captives when He ascended. (see Eph. 4:8.



Acts 2:29 and 34 must also be put into context. This is speaking of what David wrote in Psalm 16: 8-11 about the Lord ascending and again David was awaiting the Messiah like all the other OT saints. David knew that Messiah would come and he knew that the Lord would sit at the right hand of the Father. He was speaking of Christ's resurrection. Remember that our bodies will not be resurrected until the second coming. Just because our bodies have not been resurrected does not mean we will not be in heaven when we die. Jesus is the only one that was resurrected in His glorified body. To be in heaven with the Lord when we die is not being resurrected. It is when our spirits leave our body to be with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 says to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord. How do you explain this?



I do not need to go any further. If you are going to break Scripture down you must put it in the correct context of what is meant. Nowhere is it said that Lazarus was resurrected. Nowhere does it say the Abraham was resurrected. Matthew says: "I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."



iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

I didn't write this so I don't have any comment really.



Iamfree wrote: 2 Corinthians 5:8 says to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord. How do you explain this?







Well I guess I would have to say that the Bible has contradicted itself.



If we die and go to Heaven then how do we reconcile this passage?



1 Thessalonians 4:16

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. "



Lazarus (Jesus' friend) died and was resurrected. There was no mention of him going to Heaven or Hell or anywhere.



John 11:11

"After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."



Jesus did not say that Lazarus has gone to Heaven or Hell or pegatory.



1 Corinthians 15:6

"After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. "



1 Corinthians 15:20

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. "



1 Thessalonians 4:14

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. "



1 Thessalonians 4:15

"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. "





And these passages:



Mark 12:25

"When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. "



Isaiah 26:19

"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. "

[iamfreeru2]

The Bible cannot contradict itself. You have probably not correctly interpreted it. Can God contradict Himself? If God inspired the Bible is there any error in it? (See 2 Timothy 3:16) We as finite creations of His can misinterpret what he says. I call it the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid. God said what He meant and meant what He said. 2 Peter 1:20, 21 says: "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." If God directed it there can be no error in it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. "

This is talking about our bodies not our spirit, which is already with him. Again 2 Corinthians 5:8. Our resurrected bodies will be caught up to meet our spirits in the air. This is part of the first resurrection.

Lazarus (Jesus' friend) died and was resurrected. There was no mention of him going to Heaven or Hell or anywhere.

This is not the same kind of resurrection. He was brought back to life. This is not the same resurrection as Christ. Again it must be put into context.

1 Corinthians 15:6

"After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. "

This is Christ after he rose in His glorified body and many witnesses saw Him. This is a no brainer.

1 Corinthians 15:20

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. "

This is also a no brainer. Christ is the first one (first fruits) to be bodily resurrected to the Father in heaven. This is why people witnessed Him after the resurrection. Shortly thereafter He went to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. "

This is speaking of those that have died (fallen asleep) and are with Jesus now in spirit. They will return with Jesus to rain in the millennial kingdom before the judgment. Again it is part of the first resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:15

"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. "

Those that are alive in Christ will get their new bodies after those that have died get theirs. There is no contradiction of the Bible. Again 2 Corinthians 5:8 applies. Only bodies are resurrected. Those that have died are already with the Lord (Their Spirit). I see no contradiction whatsoever.



iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

First off you said that we are not suppose to "Interpret" the Bible. Yet, at the beginning of your message you tell me that I am probably not interpretting it correctly. That looks like a contradiction to me. Are we to interpret it or not interpret it?



>See 2 Timothy 3:16) We as finite creations of His can misinterpret what he says.



I believe that the Bible is the written interpretation of what He says, by we as finite creations. The Bible is a biblia. That is where it gets it's name. A biblia is a collection of books on a similar topic.



Secondly, your explainations of the verses are not completely on topic and go off on their own tangents apart from the point that I am trying to make. The meat of each verse is "Fallen asleep". Each verse says this instead of "Gone to Heaven". I never said that Jesus didn't go to Heaven. It is clear that He did. I am only talking about what happens to us believers when we die.



If I keep it simple, I simply believe that I die(fall asleep) and at the appointed time, I will be resurrected and given eternal life. My body will be sewn in corruption and be raised uncorruptable.



1 Corinthians 15:42

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption"



When I am resurrected it will seem as if I had just died and instantly came back to life again to be in the presense of Jesus.



You believe that you will go to Heaven when you die yet the Bible is clearly telling you in these verses that you will cease to exist until you are resurrected at the appointed time. When you are resurrected, of course you will be with the Lord. At that time however, the Lord will be on Earth and not in Heaven. You will live in His Kingdom here on Earth and not in Heaven.



You say that your "spirit" will be rejoined to your body but that is not in the scriptures that I have listed. That adds more questions because we know that the flesh is corrupt but is the "Spirit" corrupt also? That would be a good topic for discussion.



Basically, you have only offered your interpretation of what you think the Bible is saying.

[weishaupt1776]

[color=black][b] K.T., out of curiosity are you a member of a Mormon or Jehova's Witness church?

[iamfreeru2]

KT,



Okay I will just say you are not correctly understanding what Scripture is saying.



Fallen asleep means die. When we die we go to heaven if we are in Christ.

You believe that you will go to Heaven when you die yet the Bible is clearly telling you in these verses that you will cease to exist until you are resurrected at the appointed time. When you are resurrected, of course you will be with the Lord. At that time however, the Lord will be on Earth and not in Heaven. You will live in His Kingdom here on Earth and not in Heaven.

The Bible does not say that anyone that dies ceases to exist. Where do you get that meaning?



The spirit is made in the image of God and is not corrupt once one is born again. When the Lord indwells a believer He says He will never leave them or forsake them. If when we die we cease to exist and are mearly in the grave then the Lord must be there with us. (See Heb 13:5)



Tell me how I should interpret 1 Corinthians 5:8.



Read 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54. This is speaking of the flesh (body) being corrupted beacause it say we will not all fall asleep (die) , but we will all be changed. What will be changed? It is our bodies will change in the twinkling of an eye.The flesh is sinful and cannot enter heaven. This is why we will get new bodies, as the old ones are corrupted.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. "

Please tell me where the above states we cease to exist. Death does not mean to cease to exist.

Lazarus (Jesus' friend) died and was resurrected. There was no mention of him going to Heaven or Hell or anywhere.



John 11:11

"After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."



Jesus did not say that Lazarus has gone to Heaven or Hell or pegatory.

There is no mention of heaven or hell because Lazarus was brought back to life. There is no such place as pergatory.

1 Corinthians 15:6

"After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. "

Does "fallen asleep" mean cease to exist?

Mark 12:25

"When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. "



Isaiah 26:19

"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. "

Again this is talking about bodies (flesh) and makes reference to not marrying or having children because we are in our heavenly (glorified) bodies. There is no need for procreation.



I will have to finish later. Need to pick up the wife for church.



iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

Weis,



No. I read the Bible on my own but did attend a non-demoninational church for a while. Then a Baptist church and then a Presbyterian church. I had some religious upbringing but not much although my mother was a Catholic. Actually, it was at catacism at the age of 10 that I decided that God was really just another Santa Clause that grown ups had made up. The Priest was not interested in answering my questions, he was only interested in teaching me the Hail Mary and Our Father prayers and all the stuff about penence (sp?).



I don't agree that Mormons or JW's are correct in their beliefs. Mormons don't even agree that Jesus was the son of God. The think he was just an arch angel. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was contacted by an angel (Moroni) and given another testament of Jesus Christ detailing the things that had happened to a lost tribe of Israel in South America. This new testament is suppose to be the immutable word of God yet they constantly revise it.



JW's keep thinking that they know when Jesus is coming back and have been proven wrong over and over again. There are a lot of inconsistencies with their beliefs too.



What about you? You are Mormon or JW? If so, sorry if I have offended you.

[KaosTheory]

Iamfree,



You asked:



1. The Bible does not say that anyone that dies ceases to exist. Where do you get that meaning?



My full statement was "ceases to exist until they are resurrected". I still use Lazarus as my example. He was dead and rotting. Lazarus was no more. He had ceased to exist. Absolutely no mention is made of his "spirit" doing anything or going anywhere. He doesn't even make a statement about what had happened while he was dead. It seems reasonable to me that that is what will happen to all of us. It is clear here that Lazarus has fallen asleep just as it says in the Bible. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that "Fallen Asleep" means dead and rotting until resurrection.





2. Tell me how I should interpret 1 Corinthians 5:8.



1 Cor 5:8

"Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth."



Not sure what you are trying to say here. Sorry.



3. Read 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54. This is speaking of the flesh (body) being corrupted beacause it say we will not all fall asleep (die) , but we will all be changed. What will be changed? It is our bodies will change in the twinkling of an eye.The flesh is sinful and cannot enter heaven. This is why we will get new bodies, as the old ones are corrupted.



I think you have misunderstood these verses. They who do not "Fall Asleep" are obviously still alive when Jesus returns. Their corrupted bodies will be changed in an instant at the last Trumpet. It also looks like they will miss out on going to Heaven as they will be living in the Kingdom that Jesus sets up on earth from that point on. This verse has nothing to do with dieing and going to Heaven.



1 Cor 15:52

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.



Here again, the dead are seen being resurrected and changed into uncorruptable beings. No mention of "spirits" leaving Heaven to inhabit them.



What point are you trying to make?



4. Please tell me where the above states we cease to exist. Death does not mean to cease to exist.



1 Thessalonians 4:16

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. "



If the dead in Christ will rise (out of their grave) then they must be dead and rotting in their grave in the first place. This supports my believe that we lie in our grave (cease to exist) until we are resurrected.



Death means cease to exist. I agree that in this case, it is not permanent but that is not my point.



5. There is no mention of heaven or hell because Lazarus was brought back to life. There is no such place as pergatory.



That isn't the point. The point is that he died, was put in a tomb and was resurrected. Some believe in pergatory so I added it. There is no mention of Heaven or Hell because we are being shown what is in store for us. No Heaven, no Hell, just a grave, a period of non-existence then a resurrection.



6. Does "fallen asleep" mean cease to exist?



I think it is reasonable to believe so. Although the use of the term "Fallen Asleep" indicates that the situation is not permanent. So a reasonable definition (to me) after observing what happened to Lazarus, would be:



Fallen Asleep : Cease to exist until resurrected.



7. Mark 12:25

"When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. "



The point is the "Dead will rise". This adds support to my belief that we will lie in the ground like Lazarus until resurrected.



Isaiah 26:19

"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. "



It does not say that the "Spirits" in Heaven will come down and reinhabit their new bodies.



It is very clear that this is another description of what Lazarus experienced. Death then resurrection.

[iamfreeru2]

KT,



I will tackle this in the morning. Juet got home and not feeling well at all. Take care.



iamfreeru2