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Old 08-20-2004, 08:21 PM
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A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge

I cut and pasted this from Ravi Zacharias' site. He is one of my favorite Christian Apologists.



http://www.gospelcom.net/rzim/public...text.php?id=12





James Beilby and David K. Clark

A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge







Excerpted from the RZIM Critical Questions booklet, Why Bother With Truth?

Published in Areopagus Journal 2/2 (April 2002): 13-18.

Posted with permission by Areopagus Journal (http://www.apologeticsresctr.org).



How can we know the world around us? How can we know God? How can we know anything at all? These are some of the questions of epistemology, the study of theories of knowledge.



Epistemology has two main goals. First, we want to find as much truth as possible. And second, we want to avoid as much falsehood as possible. These two goals stand in tension with each other. I can easily acquire very large amounts of truth. If I were totally gullible, I’d believe just everything I hear. That would give me the largest number of true beliefs possible. But the problem is that along with all the true beliefs I’d acquire, I’d also obtain many false beliefs. So I’d have some needles of truth hidden in a very large haystack of error. That wouldn’t help me much.

Similarly, I could easily avoid as much error as possible. If I were completely skeptical, I’d disbelieve everything. That would safeguard me against every falsehood. But the problem is that I’d miss out on all truth whatsoever—and some truth might be very important. So that wouldn’t help me much either.

No one urges us to believe absolutely everything. But some very important and influential thinkers do advise us to believe nothing (or very little)—or at least they recommend that we believe only when an idea is incredibly well supported. This is skepticism. Skepticism puts most of its energies into avoiding error, and very little effort into finding truth. So how can we develop an understanding of epistemology that goes beyond skepticism? How can we balance our desire for truth with our need to avoid error?





Truth and Knowledge



It’s critical to distinguish truth and knowledge. Too many people equate these two concepts, with chaotic results. But truth and knowledge are different concepts. Put simply, true affirmations are those that correspond to reality. So truth is a characteristic of statements that properly describe aspects of the real world. This is called the correspondence view of truth.

The correspondence view of truth isn’t a method for testing truth claims or discovering knowledge. It’s a definition of what we mean when we say that a statement “is true.” According to the correspondence view, what makes a statement true is reality itself. A statement like, “This car is red,” is true, simply if the car in question actually is red. Truth doesn’t depend on anyone knowing the truth. So, for instance, even if no one’s around to discover that it’s 115° at 2:00 p.m. on August 15, 1977, in the middle of Death Valley, it’s still true that it’s 115° out in that desert. The statement, “It’s 115° at 2:00 p.m. on August 15, 1977, in the middle of Death Valley,” is true even if no one thinks about it. Truth is independent of human minds.

The word knowledge denotes a person’s proper understanding of the true nature of reality. This proper grasping of reality can be knowledge by acquaintance. In this sense, we know what the color blue looks like. An accurate perception of reality can also take the form of knowledge of true statements that describe that reality. Both of these are important. Knowing a friend is more akin to knowing by acquaintance, and it’s more important than just knowing about a friend. But knowing true statements is also important. In fact, the two kinds of knowing are related, because knowing by acquaintance entails the truth of descriptive statements. If I know a friend named Greg, then I know many true propositions, including “Greg exists” and “I count Greg as a friend.”

For a belief to count as knowledge for a person, it must meet three conditions. First, knowledge must be true. We don’t just mean that someone thinks the idea is true. We mean that the idea is true. Members of the Flat Earth Society (believe it or not, there is such a thing!) think that the earth is flat. Do we count their belief as knowledge? Of course not! They believe the earth is flat, but their belief is false and hence can’t count as knowledge. Genuine knowledge is true.

Second, knowledge must be believed. We must believe a claim (that is, we have to hold a belief as true) in order to know it. Of course, believing something isn’t enough to make it true, and not believing it doesn’t make it false. But without believing, a true idea isn’t knowledge for us. Suppose it’s true that one of my great-great-grandfathers was a Confederate Army lieutenant whose troops played a key role at the Battle of Fredericksburg. Now suppose I don’t know this fact and don’t have any particular beliefs about the lieutenant. In this case, it’s obviously true that my great-great-grandfather was this lieutenant, but it would be very odd to say that I know this about my great-great-grandfather. In fact, I probably have very few beliefs about my great-great-grandfathers. I can know generic things: eight persons who lived sometime in the last 250 years are my great-great-grandfathers. They were males; they fathered my great-grandparents; and none of them ever watched TV or received an e-mail. But since I don’t believe anything individually about any of them, I can’t be said to know anything distinctive about them as individuals. We must believe something to know it.

Third, knowledge requires some other fact that legitimates the knower’s holding that belief. The belief must arise out of this legitimating fact; it must be grounded in this “something else.” Now we’re being vague because the exact nature of this legitimating fact is very hotly debated. But the importance of this legitimating fact is that it separates genuine knowledge from true beliefs that are held purely by chance. Obviously, we shouldn’t consider a true belief as knowledge if that belief was the result of a wild guess. Say I win the lottery by guessing the winning numbers. Sure, I hoped that the winning numbers would be the first five digits of my Social Security number, but it’s wrong-headed to say that I knew that they would be the winning numbers! In sum, by the word knowledge, we mean a true belief held by a person for an appropriate reason—that is, grounded in a legitimating “something else.”





Forming and Testing Beliefs



If knowledge is true belief plus some legitimating fact, then how should we set the standards for assessing these legitimating facts? The 17th century philosopher Rene Descartes concentrated on this very problem. His philosophy set the stage for modern discussions of knowledge. Descartes’ approach posited very high—too high—standards for that “something else,” that legitimating fact that distinguishes merely true belief from genuine knowledge.



Methodism Vs. Particularism

In order to weed out false beliefs and gain genuine knowledge, Descartes required that all candidates for genuine knowledge must arise from a method. Correct method (for Descartes, the geometric method) is the key to finding true knowledge. This approach is called methodism. Methodism, in this discussion, isn’t the religious denomination. Rather, it’s an epistemic theory that stipulates this: we know any particular true belief if and only if we arrive at or produce that knowledge by following a correct method.

Here’s a specific example. Suppose someone asks me whether I know the statement, “My coffee cup is blue.” (Let’s call this statement p.) Methodism requires that before I can truly know p, I must follow a proper method by which I know p. So to know any particular truth, methodism says I must follow a proper epistemic method.

Although Descartes’ methodism may seem like a promising way to ground knowledge, it’s fundamentally flawed. Methodism requires that before I can know anything, I must have prior knowledge of the method by which to know that thing. But then how do I know that method itself? My coming to know what method to use would itself require following a prior method. This quickly leads to what’s called an infinite regress. Every time I try to answer the problem, the problem keeps appearing. I start moving back a chain of questions. But every time I move back to a prior link in the chain, the problem repeatedly emerges. It’s like asking, “What explains Michael’s existence?” If I say, “His parents,” I just raise again the very question I hoped to answer: “What explains his parents’ existence?” “Their parents?” Ultimately, given the methodist approach, there’s no way to end this infinite series of questions. In the end, if methodism were true, I’d have to know something (the right method) before I could know anything. There’s no way out of this double bind.

But there’s another approach to finding the legitimating fact that separates true belief from knowledge. It’s called particularism. Particularism starts by assuming that it’s right to know particular things directly (that is, without following a method) since we find that we already know many particular things. In certain conditions, we directly and properly form true beliefs. And we form these beliefs through a variety of means. We see a tree or hear a train. We compute things. We infer conclusions from things we see or hear. We learn from experts. We read the Bible. Each of these processes generally leads to true beliefs. And so it’s legitimate, particularism says, to count particular beliefs like these as knowledge. We shouldn’t be required to step back and first prove that, say, our vision is perfect, before we rightly know something we see. That would lead us back to the methodist trap (since we’d have to prove the method that we use to prove our vision is perfect). So it’s better just to assume that our properly formed beliefs are innocent until proven guilty. With these particular beliefs in hand as examples, we can begin to understand what knowledge is—and gradually to increase the number of things we know.



Testing Individual Beliefs

But difficulties arise when we run into contrary evidence. Let’s say that, just by looking at it, I form the belief that a particular stick is straight. I have no reason to doubt this because my eyesight’s generally very good. Then I put the stick in water, and suddenly I form the belief that it’s bent. Again, my eyesight’s pretty good. But my mind tells me that the stick can’t be both straight and bent. So which of my two beliefs is true? Or let’s say my wife helps me pick out a tie that looks gray to me. I protest: “It’s too drab.” But she assures me that the tie is a nice shade of rose. Should I trust her judgment?

It’s when this sort of thing happens that testing procedures become important. This is where we follow methods. We have procedures to help us figure out which of the conflicting things that our normally reliable belief-forming processes are telling us is actually correct. The conflict between beliefs produced by these normally reliable indicators leads us to question whether what we think we saw could really be so. I remember something in my high school physics class about light refracting when it passes through water, and this accounts for the bent appearance. Or I remember that I’m color blind in reds and greens, and this explains why the rose-colored tie looks gray to me. So what do we do about conflicting facts? We go to procedures to help us sort them out. (This is the correct insight that methodism takes too far.) Should we just give up and concede skepticism? Hardly.

What are the procedures or strategies for evaluating competing beliefs? First, our beliefs should be rational. At a minimum, this means that our beliefs shouldn’t contradict one another. This is coherence, a negative test. Say I believe both that “I’m the world’s leading microbiologist” and that “I don’t know much about microbiology.” These beliefs are obviously incompatible, and so holding both beliefs at the same time is irrational. One of the two (or maybe both) must go. Coherence is necessary. But it doesn’t guarantee truth. Incoherence is a significant red flag. It guarantees that some beliefs are false. We should pursue strategies in order to avoid holding incoherent beliefs.

Second, our belief should fit with the evidence. If a belief doesn’t fit with data we know to be true, we should give up that belief. Take the claim, “I’m the sixteenth president of the U.S.” This belief conflicts with many well-established facts: “The sixteenth U.S. president’s name was Abraham Lincoln”; “My name is David Clark”; “Abraham Lincoln is dead”; “I’m alive”; and so on. So I’m really not the sixteenth U.S. president.

Generally, we look for beliefs that fit the evidence. But notice something very important. We don’t stipulate a rule: “Every belief must be proved by evidence before it counts as knowledge.” Among other problems, that rule would land us back in methodism. The problem with making this rule into an absolute requirement for knowledge is that the rule itself can’t be proved by evidence. No evidence could ever prove that “Every belief must be proved by evidence before it counts as knowledge.” So we do look for evidence to help us, but only when it’s appropriate.



Testing Large-Scale Models

So far we’ve been talking about particular beliefs. But we also seek knowledge about large networks of truth claims. A large-scale scientific theory, for example, is a complex set of interlocking claims, all connected in a large network. Large-scale models include many different kinds of things, including scientific, historical, and even religious convictions.

Large-scale models compete with each other to see which one does the best job of explaining all (or most of) the known facts. Thus, for instance, the heliocentric (sun-centered) model of our solar system competed with the geocentric (earth-centered) model. Though this isn’t well known, both the heliocentric and geocentric models explained the available physical facts equally well for centuries. Physical observations didn’t finally confirm the heliocentric model until more than 200 years after Galileo’s controversies. Thus, the heliocentric model didn’t compete with the facts. Rather, it competed with and finally defeated the geocentric model of the solar system by doing a better job of explaining the most facts. This is one way that large-scale models gain support—by outdoing their rivals at explaining the data.

Here’s another example. When National Transportation Safety Board (NTS investigators are trying to explain a plane crash, they look for evidence. They know what to look for because they’ve explained other crashes by finding telltale facts that guided them to large-scale explanations. The telltale facts are clues that unlock patterns of interpretation and lead to strongly supported explanations. The NTSB puts all the data together and concludes, say, that the plane crashed because a turbine blade in one of the engines shattered. The power of this explanation to incorporate all the relevant data—like the loud explosion passengers heard and the sudden loss of airspeed reported on the ****pit data recorder—is a major reason we hold that the large-scale theory is a properly supported, interlocking set of true beliefs. The individual facts are themselves grounded in experience (such as the sound of the explosion, the report of the plane’s reduced airspeed, and the shattered pieces of the blade). The large-scale theory incorporates and explains these and many other facts.

Complex explanatory models can form ongoing programs of research and investigation. They not only explain what we know already. They can also guide us to what we don’t yet know. Take, for example, the discovery of Neptune. Uranus didn’t orbit the sun as the large-scale models suggested it should. But when scientists imagined that another planet was exerting gravitational force on Uranus, then its orbit suddenly made sense. So scientists began looking for this other planet, and sure enough, they found Neptune. This is similar to “superstring theory” which developed when theorists used mathematics to explain their observations. The mathematical calculations worked out beautifully when scientists assumed the existence of things they called superstrings. The calculations are powerful in that they explain a number of related issues. So researchers posit that superstrings exist even though they can’t observe them. Research programs that guide researchers to new discoveries are progressive. This helps confirm their connection with the real world.

But testing large-scale constellations of beliefs isn’t simple. In fact, it’s sometimes impossible. Theories about particular events, like why a particular ship went down in a perfectly calm sea, may never in fact be understood. The problem might be that certain key pieces of evidence are stuck too far down on the sea floor. This means we could explain the event in principle, but can’t in fact. That is, there’s no logical reason why we can’t explain this event, but there’s a practical barrier to our understanding. So in this case, we should remain agnostic rather than claim to know what we really can’t know—at least until we develop a new submersible vessel that can get down to the wreck and find the key evidence. The truth about some complex processes might just remain hidden.

Testing models is even more complex because it requires making judgments of several different kinds. What are the facts to be explained? (Sometimes the two models will explain different ranges of data, and there’s no way to step outside the two models to know which range of apparent facts is really most relevant.) What are the criteria by which we decide which explanation is best? (Sometimes the two explanations will excel at two different criteria—one model might be simpler while the other is more helpful in guiding us to new discoveries.) So our procedures aren’t straightforward and linear. But reasonable judgments are still possible. When the NTSB investigators find a cracked turbine blade, we know we shouldn’t blame the pilots for the crash (and maybe we should blame the jet engine manufacturer). Gathering knowledge isn’t always easy, but it’s amazing how much we can learn through carefully using all our strategies in a coordinated way.





Knowledge and the Intellectual Virtues



Thus far, we’ve been discussing some of the key elements of a proper understanding of knowledge, including belief formation and testing. We’ve argued that knowledge requires true belief plus some account of that belief—something that legitimates the belief. But thus far we’ve been quite coy about what this account is. It’s time—indeed, past time—to repair that deficiency.

What is this feature that, when added to true belief, constitutes knowledge? Here scholars disagree—in fact, there are few things about which epistemologists disagree more! Thankfully, it’s not our purpose to address all the academic squabbles. Rather, we’ll offer an account of knowledge that we find persuasive. t focuses on the relationship between knowledge and the intellectual virtues.

What are intellectual virtues? Virtues are qualities of excellence possessed by a person. Intellectual virtues share some characteristics with moral virtues. In fact, many acts that are virtuous in a moral context are also virtuous in an intellectual context. Examples of intellectual virtues are honesty and courage. Being intellectually honest means making a fair appraisal of the evidence at hand, dedicating effort to reach valid conclusions, admitting personal biases that affect beliefs, and seeking to override or reduce those biases. In an intellectual context, courage involves, among other things, being willing to take a minority position when the evidence points in that direction. It also means investigating personally held beliefs with rigor.

An intellectual virtue, therefore, is a characteristic of a person who acts in a praiseworthy manner in the process of forming beliefs. But an epistemic virtue isn’t simply an instance of intellectual skill. For example, think about the ability to see sharply. This is a skill that some lucky people have from birth. This ability isn’t developed over time. (In fact, eyesight falters over time.) So it’s not particularly virtuous. Virtue relates more to what a person does with abilities or skills like incredibly sharp vision.

Further, the intellectual virtues don’t just happen naturally. Rather, they arise from habits. Like good habits (such as exercising and eating healthfully) and bad habits (like biting fingernails and gossiping), the intellectual virtues are the sorts of things that become more and more a part of us the more we practice them. Similarly, the more we practice their opposites, like intellectual dishonesty, the more difficult it becomes to respond to any given situation in an intellectually virtuous way.

Intellectual virtues influence, and are influenced by, the motivations of the one employing them. A person must come to believe something out of proper intentions. Say that a student named John hears a teacher talking about a classmate whom John dislikes. “He is nice,” the teacher says. Because of his ill will toward the student, John hears, “He has lice,” and he jumps on this bit of negative information. Even if it’s true that the student has lice, does John’s belief count as knowledge? No. Even if he believes it, it’s true, and it’s grounded in a normally reliable belief-forming process (John has good hearing), from a virtue perspective, John’s belief doesn’t count as knowledge since this belief arose in an intellectually non-virtuous way. John’s belief was shaped by his malicious attitude toward the fellow student. Given all these points, we define knowledge in this way: Knowledge is true belief that is reached or acquired through an act of virtue.

The key insight of virtue epistemology is that knowledge isn’t just an issue of whether evidence exists for specific belief at a particular time, but an issue of how a person goes about gathering evidence. So whether or not a particular belief is properly grounded for me has to do with how I formed the belief. Did I form this belief in accord with the intellectual virtues, reflecting praiseworthy habits of belief formation and testing acquired over time? Or did I form this belief in a manner that reflected slipshod handling of the evidence or haphazard reasoning processes?



Conclusion



We began by talking about our need to gain truth and avoid error. Skeptics are fixated on avoiding error. Their concern is the adequacy of a person’s evidence. To avoid falsehood, skeptics place a very high standard for admissible evidence. For some skeptics, the standard is so high that every belief becomes doubtful.

We agree that avoiding falsehood is vital. And given our virtue-oriented epistemology, the notion of evidence is important. But more important is whether we rightly handle the evidence we have! An unscrupulous person can twist evidence to support the position he holds. But if we’re intellectually virtuous, we’ll operate differently. We’ll treat evidence honestly, overcome our biases toward our own culture’s preconceived notions, and refuse to misuse evidence to gain power or to pretend that our own pet beliefs are superior.

So is knowledge possible? Even though people have many false beliefs, Yes! The existence of junk car yards doesn’t count as evidence against the existence of new cars. Similarly, the existence of intellectually non-virtuous people doesn’t show that intellectually virtuous people fail completely in their quest for genuine knowledge. In sum, due to human limits, some things are beyond knowing. But if we exercise the intellectual virtues, we can achieve genuine knowledge about important things. Skepticism wins some skirmishes along the way, but it doesn’t win the war!





James Beilby is an adjunct professor at Bethel College and Theological Seminary, St. Paul, MN.



David K. Clark is professor of theology and Christian thought at Bethel Theological Seminary, St. Paul, MN.



Most of the content of this article was previously published in Why Bother with Truth? Arriving at Knowledge in a Skeptical Society ©James Beilby and David K. Clark, (Norcross, GA: Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, 2000).









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Old 08-22-2004, 01:24 AM
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A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge

KT,



As I said before, ACCEPTANCE is key. Without this--there is no truth, regardless of your/my belief of what is true. If you read this whole theory again---it is based on acceptance. This is first and paramount. All the things outlined in this theory is based on acceptance before a point can be made or proven.



Descarte's theory was accepted at one point and then disproved later. And even the disapproval of Descarte's theory had to be accepted.



That is a very good read mind you. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 08-22-2004, 07:28 PM
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Hmm maybe you should read it again. There is a difference between knowledge and truth. The article says that we can gather a lot of "knowledge" but... is it all "True"? They defined "Truth" as that which corresponds to reality. Meaning, when used in a practical application, the predicted result and the actual result are the same.



For the purposes of discussions, the word belief should be used instead of truth. It just makes more sense to me. I have my beliefs and you have your own different (maybe) beliefs and we decide to discuss our beliefs. I say I believe X to be true and you say you disagree. I then provide a compelling line of reasoning and maybe a demonstration after which you decide that you also agree that my belief is true (corresponds to reality).



This is just an example.



Now, what if you and I are Investigators of airplane crashes and it is our job to determine the cause of the crash. If I use your definition of truth, wouldn't your job be impossible? You were not there to see the crash to observe what caused it. To you, the truth is "there is no cause". Or.... the cause is whatever you say it is because your belief makes it true. Do you see what I am getting at? Now, say I come up with a theory and you come up with a theory and your theory seems to make all the pieces fit and my theory is full of holes. I won't accept your theory though. Is your theory false? What do we do?



Here is how I see it.



The absolute truth is that something caused the crash.



My relative understanding of that truth depends on my observations and ability to reason to put together a plausable theory.



Your relative understanding of the truth depends on the same thing.



If we disagree on what caused the crash, it doesn't change the fact that there was definitely a cause.



Science is based on the belief of an absolute universe, but is relativistic in that there is no perfect knowlege or complete perception. As our knowledge base changes, so does our "perception" of reality. So one who is truely grounded in science would take the stance of modesty. This is why I use the word "Belief".





More shots in the dark........
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Old 08-23-2004, 01:33 AM
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KT,



AAaahhhh, now we're getting somewhere. I agree (to a point of course) with your post!!!



The term "believe" should be used constantly when interpretation is involved. And the definition of believe should be published before any speech begins so that listeners to a speech know where the speaker stands.



We have determined what "know" and "believe" are defined to be for these types of conversations. "know" is 100% and "believe" is less than 100% reliability.



In any case, I agree with your post. It is just my intent to not let some kind of "truth" give a person a license to judge what truth should be to someone who does not believe in their "truth". This is the biggest problem I've encountered because, the person who is using the more general consensus of what is true, is using the weight of the belief of the majority on someone or some minority that chooses to believe otherwise.



So like I've been saying, this is not about what you or I believe or even know to be true--it is about the bigger sense of "truth". The point that I am trying to make is not to attempt to dispell any particular belief or knowledge of truth or what truth is to anyone or group--but to make "truth" more accessible without reprisal from the majority onto the minority.



If this keeps happening--then "truth" would be misused and tainted with interpretations of one person or a group of like minded people.



Remember, my goal is not to dispell any belief or "truth" of anyone or even God's word. But quite the opposite; to recognize and <u>discuss</u> the abuse of what is truth and the acceptance of such interpretations.



Aaaaaahhhh, what a rush!!! Good discussion.
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Old 08-23-2004, 07:15 PM
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Jersee,



You said:



1. The term "believe" should be used constantly when interpretation is involved.



Would you agree that interpretation is all we have?



2. It is just my intent to not let some kind of "truth" give a person a license to judge what truth should be to someone who does not believe in their "truth".



I agree, but I take it a little further even... since I believe that my understanding of reality is always tentative. My theory is that all we can really have are our beliefs. I believe that an "All encompassing truth" is real and exists apart from my understanding or even my ablility to understand. To me life is the plane crash "mystery" and I am the investigator moving from theory to theory trying to make all the pieces fit into one coherent picture.



3. This is the biggest problem I've encountered because, the person who is using the more general consensus of what is true, is using the weight of the belief of the majority on someone or some minority that chooses to believe otherwise.



So you are saying that this person hasn't really done their own homework? They are just going with the flow of what the majority seems to hold as being true?



4. So like I've been saying, this is not about what you or I believe or even know to be true--it is about the bigger sense of "truth".



When you say "the bigger sense of Truth" to me, that means the world external to me that I spend all day interpreting.



5. The point that I am trying to make is not to attempt to dispell any particular belief or knowledge of truth or what truth is to anyone or group--but to make "truth" more accessible without reprisal from the majority onto the minority.



How do you propose to go about accomplishing this? If what one believes is truth, it should correspond to reality. If there is no way to test it then it should be relegated to "belief" or "faith" and not "truth".



6. If this keeps happening--then "truth" would be misused and tainted with interpretations of one person or a group of like minded people.



This is the story of man. This happens over and over again. This is why the Greek Philosophers especially Socrates devoted some much time to understanding or trying to understand what knowledge or truth really is. People in general are like robots on autopilot though. They don't look at things this deeply.



7. Remember, my goal is not to dispell any belief or "truth" of anyone or even God's word. But quite the opposite; to recognize and discuss the abuse of what is truth and the acceptance of such interpretations.



Ok, I am almost certain that that is exactly what I've been saying. The immediate problem, for me anyway, is what point of reference to use. So, how do you propose to accomplish this?
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Old 08-24-2004, 02:24 AM
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KT,



This is moving along rather smoothly.



"Would you agree that interpretation is all we have?"

Well personally speaking yes and no because I do "know" a lot of things and somethings are a "belief"



"So you are saying that this person hasn't really done their own homework? They are just going with the flow of what the majority seems to hold as being true?"



Quite possibly, or even worse. A clandestine effort to mislead folks that have an undying love for the Almighty.



When you say "the bigger sense of Truth" to me, that means the world external to me that I spend all day interpreting.



Or accepting.



How do you propose to go about accomplishing this? If what one believes is truth, it should correspond to reality. If there is no way to test it then it should be relegated to "belief" or "faith" and not "truth".



This I "know" is accomplished through understanding of their message and then their deeds. Deeds are very overlooked when it comes to things of this nature. Some do as they say--others don't.



7. Remember, my goal is not to dispell any belief or "truth" of anyone or even God's word. But quite the opposite; to recognize and discuss the abuse of what is truth and the acceptance of such interpretations.



Ok, I am almost certain that that is exactly what I've been saying. The immediate problem, for me anyway, is what point of reference to use. So, how do you propose to accomplish this?




Through acceptance to a large degree. It would be a very intricate task but, revelation of folks whose motives are that contrary to good will will be exposed through the Almighty--exactly how? I am unsure. But to just recognize this crap when it is heading your way is warning enough.



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Old 08-26-2004, 10:14 AM
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A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge

Through acceptance to a large degree. It would be a very intricate task but, revelation of folks whose motives are that contrary to good will will be exposed through the Almighty--exactly how? I am unsure. But to just recognize this crap when it is heading your way is warning enough.



Hmm acceptance....So the focus should be on presenting your own beliefs in such a way as to persuade the listener that they (your belief(s)) correspond to reality? If not, then what other way could there possibly be?



You say you are unsure.....Does that mean you have a few ideas but not sure which will work?



Or are you pretty much coming up empty on ideas altogether?



I am still foggy on your point view on the external reality that you are experiencing.



What are your thoughts, if any, on a theory of "Absolute Truth"?



Are you absolutely positive that you are not sitting in a small pod plugged into a large computer that is pumping sensual data directly into your brain while your body just lies permanently motionless and unconscious?



Are you 100% certain that your entire life did not begin just an hour ago and that all your memories are really just implants meant to fool you?



Why is it that when you are dreaming, you don't realize that you are dreaming? Your brain is completely fooled into thinking that your observations are real no matter how much your obsevations violate the physical laws of the mechanical universe. How do you know that this same thing isn't happening while you are awake?



I was doing the crossword puzzle today and I thought that maybe I could just put in whatever answer I wanted and the puzzle would just come together anyway. I told everyone else in the room to put in whatever they thought was the true answer, since if they thought it was true then it was indeed true. Hmmm nope..didn't work, it ended up that there was only one solution. In the end, everyone had to reconsider what they thought to be the "True" answers in favor of the answers that actually solved the puzzle.



Kaos' Parable of the Crossword. Whatcha think?
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Old 08-27-2004, 07:38 AM
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A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge

KT,



So the focus should be on presenting your own beliefs in such a way as to persuade the listener that they (your belief(s)) correspond to reality? If not, then what other way could there possibly be? Believe anything you wish to without reprisal or persecution. This is one thing that Jesus died for. It was in the name of the Father but, IMHO it was for free will too. It is not true love if one was persuaded into loving God through duress and persecution.





You say you are unsure.....Does that mean you have a few ideas but not sure which will work?



Or are you pretty much coming up empty on ideas altogether?



I am still foggy on your point view on the external reality that you are experiencing.
I say "unsure" because I cannot speak for all--just point out what the source ofthe problem is. Just keep in mind, none of this can exist wthout acceptance. If folks accept it or anthing to be true--then it is for them--even if the reality of it all says otherwise. Our economic system is a good example.



What are your thoughts, if any, on a theory of "Absolute Truth"? Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.



Are you absolutely positive that you are not sitting in a small pod plugged into a large computer that is pumping sensual data directly into your brain while your body just lies permanently motionless and unconscious? right now--I cannot disconnect the energy produced from the reality that recognizes the energy and returns such reality through sense data. I exist therfore, I am.



Are you 100% certain that your entire life did not begin just an hour ago and that all your memories are really just implants meant to fool you? no not 100%



Why is it that when you are dreaming, you don't realize that you are dreaming? Your brain is completely fooled into thinking that your observations are real no matter how much your obsevations violate the physical laws of the mechanical universe. How do you know that this same thing isn't happening while you are awake?

Is day dreaming the answer you're searching for?



I was doing the crossword puzzle today and I thought that maybe I could just put in whatever answer I wanted and the puzzle would just come together anyway. I told everyone else in the room to put in whatever they thought was the true answer, since if they thought it was true then it was indeed true. Hmmm nope..didn't work, it ended up that there was only one solution. In the end, everyone had to reconsider what they thought to be the "True" answers in favor of the answers that actually solved the puzzle.



Kaos' Parable of the Crossword. Whatcha think?
So if the puzzle was already solved prior to the answers given--did it really make everyone's answers false? Hhmmmm interesting.







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Old 08-27-2004, 12:40 PM
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A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge

J: Believe anything you wish to without reprisal or persecution. This is one thing that Jesus died for. It was in the name of the Father but, IMHO it was for free will too. It is not true love if one was persuaded into loving God through duress and persecution.



KT: Doesn't it go without saying that you can believe what you wish? Ok, but your point is "without reprisal or persecution". I agree. Is it ok if the reprisal comes from God? Keep in mind, that ideas carry consequences. I can believe that fire will not burn me all I want to. I can believe that Jesus is only a story book character. I can believe that I can kill anyone that gets in my way. It is clear that these beliefs would carry reprisal and persecution. This is reducing it to the ridicules, I know but where do we draw the line?



I used the word persuasion to convey the use of reason to effect a free will conversion to my belief. Persuasion by duress is coercion. I agree that this is not true love.



J: Just keep in mind, none of this can exist wthout acceptance. If folks accept it or anthing to be true--then it is for them--even if the reality of it all says otherwise. Our economic system is a good example.



KT: None of what can exist? -- It IS true for them. I agree. A good example of my previous point is that You yourself have demonstrated that You believe that it is not ok for Iamfree to believe what he believes, about the successfulness of Redemption. It IS true for him though.



J: Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.



KT: Yes exactly. In a way, if not literally, the "Facts" have an existence all their own. I mean, apart from our understanding of them. Their existence is not contingent upon our understanding. My focus is, arriving at the "Facts" and communicating them to others.



J: right now--I cannot disconnect the energy produced from the reality that recognizes the energy and returns such reality through sense data. I exist therfore, I am.



KT: Interesting but doesn't answer my question.





J: no not 100%



KT: Good answer. Now, since you can not be 100% certain that your entire life has not been a figment of your imagination, how can you be 100% certain about anything besides what you know you feel at the present time?



J: Is day dreaming the answer you're searching for?



KT: Not exactly, I am questioning your trust in your ability to perceive and interpret what your senses or your brain are telling you. Are you 100% certain that you are not dreaming right now?



J: So if the puzzle was already solved prior to the answers given--did it really make everyone's answers false? Hhmmmm interesting.



KT: Well, the crossword puzzle is offered as an analogy to "Absolute Truth" or the "Facts" that exist apart from our understanding. The "Fact", in this case, is that there is only one solution to the overall puzzle. This fact remains only a theory to the puzzlers until the puzzle is indeed solved. I would say that if our answers did not correspond to the "Absolute Truth" (solution) then yes, those answers (theories) were false. Did you have a different perspective on this? I am sensing that you got something else out of my parable.
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Old 08-29-2004, 05:22 AM
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A Brief Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge

KT,



Good points. Here's my responses:



KT: Doesn't it go without saying that you can believe what you wish? Ok, but your point is "without reprisal or persecution". I agree. Is it ok if the reprisal comes from God? Keep in mind, that ideas carry consequences. I can believe that fire will not burn me all I want to. I can believe that Jesus is only a story book character. I can believe that I can kill anyone that gets in my way. It is clear that these beliefs would carry reprisal and persecution. This is reducing it to the ridicules, I know but where do we draw the line?



We draw the line when Man intervenes and causes havoc in the name of God--and then through a subtle form of duress and persuasion offer a religion as a solution to your problem. When in fact, if the fraud and manmade havoc around us was not there--there would be no need for the duress and one can turn to God not only in their time of need--but through pure love of God as salvation would be just a side effect of the love--not the purpose.



KT: None of what can exist? -- It IS true for them. I agree. A good example of my previous point is that You yourself have demonstrated that You believe that it is not ok for Iamfree to believe what he believes, about the successfulness of Redemption. It IS true for him though.



Aaahhh, none of any beliefs can exist without acceptance. Iamfree's accusations by me are of a different nature but somewhat inline to what you have mentioned. He has accepted both doctrines (UCC and Bible) to access redemption. Re-read my posts to him on this issue and you find that contradiction to the Word on the money changers and usury are in direct conflict of the UCC (the money changers doctrine). If you read my opinions on the UCC redemption crap--you will find that I cannot dismiss their successes totally as I have no documented proof to even verify the validity of those successes. So the UCC redemption crowd can claim successes by hearsay and BELIEVE such things are true--since they have accepted the hearsay as possible truth. Now we are back to acceptance. So I condemn the mixing of doctrines more than I condemn their beliefs as I already have enough unproven claims to support beliefs. I can only urge those contemplating UCC redemption to do their homework and ask for proof of their claims and not the greatest stories ever told.



KT: Interesting but doesn't answer my question. right now---no. in the next second--maybe. The real teaser is if I do recognize such an event will I ACCEPT it as truth or not?



KT: Good answer. Now, since you can not be 100% certain that your entire life has not been a figment of your imagination, how can you be 100% certain about anything besides what you know you feel at the present time? Since I cannot be 100% certain of the first part--isn't the second part relative to the first? Or is there a difference you are trying to expose to me?



KT: Not exactly, I am questioning your trust in your ability to perceive and interpret what your senses or your brain are telling you. Are you 100% certain that you are not dreaming right now? For me only, I must trust some part of my senses to gather a feel for any "reality" that may surround me--if I didn't totally trust this--then you could not read my responses as I would even question do you exist to even challenge my senses.



KT: Well, the crossword puzzle is offered as an analogy to "Absolute Truth" or the "Facts" that exist apart from our understanding. The "Fact", in this case, is that there is only one solution to the overall puzzle. This fact remains only a theory to the puzzlers until the puzzle is indeed solved. I would say that if our answers did not correspond to the "Absolute Truth" (solution) then yes, those answers (theories) were false. Did you have a different perspective on this? I am sensing that you got something else out of my parable. The "answers" were predetermined of general known facts whose answers are dependent on those known facts. But if one was to match letters so they would line up (not coherently) whose to say that those are not the answers? They may not be the answers to the general facts known but the puzzle added up. picky--yes...but tell that to a minor who sees the blocks as places to put letters and tell them that they did not solve the puzzle.



KT this is great thought fertilizer....but my piont still remains---ACCEPTANCE IS KEY. :-)





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