What is the Truth

[weishaupt1776]

[color=black][b]From this passage, it seems that the only truth concerning God that a believer can know is from the indwelling Holy Ghost referred to as the Spirit of Truth.<blockquote>Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of <u>TRUTH</u>; whom the <U>world cannot receive, because it seeth him not</u>, neither knoweth him: but ye <U>KNOW </U>him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. </blockquote>



When a believer is surrending properly, the truths of God are spoken by the Holy Ghost through the believer:<blockquote>Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. </blockquote>

What then are some of the truths spoken of through the believer by the Holy Ghost?:<blockquote>Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Jhn 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. </blockquote>



We cannot do this in our own strength or SELF-righteousness:<blockquote>Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

Jhn 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you </blockquote>

[Jerseee]

Weis,



There is no disagreement there from me. But no one can make someone accept truth--all we can do is give freely and pray that they receive without duress or brow beating.



Did one come to know the father through free will or instilled since childhood?



That is just a general question--nothing personal.



I say that question because IMHO, God's love and law does not have to be forced upon non-believers and it does not have to have an air of threat of damnation attached to it for it to have credence. God's love and law stands on its own merit; free from duress and subtle threats of damnation.



For example, my mother told me when I was younger to beware of folks who quote scripture. This was instilled in me when I was young and it holds true for me to this day. But she didn't have to brow beat me with that truth (my truth). When it happened to me--I ended up accepting that truth as my own, freely.



The same thery holds true (IMHO) about truth. It must be accepted no matter if it is right and the whole world knows it right. If it not accepted then it does not exist for those who reject it. No one is responsible for someone else's salvation. No one's salvation depends on others to accept the truths of God, for their salvation. God does not have a pyramid scheme by how many one converts. THis is what religion does IMHO.



So whom are these people pushing religion down on others?



God does not want 'yes men' coerced into receiving his love in lieu of salvation or public admiration (IMHO). I would not want someone to love me just because I can save them. I want someone to love me for me. Not because I am all powerful, all knowing, all in all; but because I love them for just being them and accepting my love freely in return.



God's truth should be accepted the same way (IMHO). This is not to quesiton anyone here--these are my statements in general--they do not apply to any one person. It is only my position on Truth.



My thoughts only from experience in life--not gospel. You have free will to disagree or agree but it does not change anyone's love for the Almighty.

[weishaupt1776]

[color=black][b]Sin, Righteousness, Judgement Day & Hell are truths according to Scripture & I have the supernatural ability to communicate those truths without offending anyone: (I know this because I do it & don't just talk about it)

<blockquote>Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 <U>But speaking the truth in love</U>, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: </blockquote>



Believers think that it is impossible to talk about sin, judgement day, & Hell IN LOVE. Remember that the Messiah talked more about those things than anything recorded in the Gospels. Why? Because he has a GENUINE concern for the eternal fate of one's soul. If you want I will provide a list for you of how many times he talked about Hell & condemnation & how many times he talked about his dying on the Cross & Heaven.

It seems that alot of believers equate sharing our faith regarding sin, righteousness and judgement with FORCING our belief on someone. If you really study how the Messiah witnessed, you will see that he was able to CREATE situations to dialogue with unbelievers

RELATE to their earthly interests

CONVICT their hearts showing how they fell short of God's perfect righteousness by using the Ten Commandments.

REVEAL who God really was & how they could be saved from everlasting contempt.

As far as the Free Will trip goes, remember that God is Omniscient. If you really believe that God knows everything then you would also believe that he knew who would have the heart to believe in Him & who would not BEFORE THE WORLD WAS EVEN CREATED. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe God is Omniscient.

<blockquote>Jhn 15:16 <U>Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you</u>, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you</blockquote>



If you are interested in learning how to really communicate the gospel effectively check this out HERE I have been to seminars, read books, & studied different methods of evangelism, but this way seems to be the most Biblical. They go right out on the street & show you how they do it live. The subjects of Sin, Judgement Day, & Hell are discused in a way that makes sense to each person they talk to. I know it works because I've been doing it the way Jesus did it !

[TheBlackTruth]

Originally Posted by Jerseee

BT,

You see, we cannot impose our truths on those who have truths of their own--no matter how right or wrong. I use the athiests because they have their own truth about God. So who are we to impose our 'truth' on their 'truth'?

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I think that my point is all but lost, but I will try and re-phrase:



I don't agree with the definitions you and KT agreed upon. A belief can be 100%. I would venture to characterize the definition of "belief" as the degree of one's personal confidence in a suspected truth. This degree can be total. (John 3:16, 3:36)



Truth IS, WAS and always WILL BE. And it is such regardless of if I, you or anyone else "accepts" it. I'm sure you'd agree that if nobody on the planet accepted the Truth, God, and all that He is would still exist.



I understand what you are saying, but it simply isn't the proper characterization of the essense of "truth." There is no "MY truth" or "YOUR truth" or "OUR truth". If something can be personal, exclusive of anyone else, then it isn't truth, by definition! Its a belief.



The only entity that can have personal truth is God himself, for he is the only being that possesses the characteristics of Truth; in having always been, is, and always will be. (John 14:6) THAT is truth![/color]

You guys are so funny. I am enjoying your debate on truth, but what makes is funny is that you are all believers in Christ. You all have the same "truth" yet you continue to try and get your different points across.



I am not suggesting that you should stop. I am rather enjoying it actually. I just thought that I would point it out.



Another great thing about seeing believers such as yourselfs openenly discuss this topic, is that the only power that the banks are jealous of is the power of God. They know they are nothing compared to him.

[Jerseee]

Montana,



Yep. :-)



BT and Weis,



First, for the sake of this thread that is what KT and I agreed on just to set some parameters for discussion--those definitions of 'believe' and 'know' are not concrete--just as my opinion is not concrete.



I knew before entering into this type of discussion that folks could only lean on what they knew to be true to themselves and may have a paralysis of stepping outside of their comfort zone. This is not a bad thing and I do not want to make it appear as such. That is not my point nor my goal.



My point and my goal was to just make a statement and have it discussed--not confirmed. That is all.



I agree that there are certain truths that are undeniable--but if someone does not accept that truth--then it does not exist to them. No one can prove otherwise--only the person can admit to their folly. Just because what we have come to learn as right or wrong does not apply to someone else. This is the problem. They must freely accept that truth for it to truth to them.



Weis, you cannot tell me that there is no sort of duress with the gospel. I'm not saying anything really bad but, you cannot honestly tell me that threats of damnation are not used and communicated. I know better than this--as I have experienced that too many times around the world. It matters not if it is Catholic, Islam, Baptist, Buddism, etc... They all use the tactic to gain followers.



BT if your point is right then there would only be one way to worship--there would not be multiple ways to worship the Almighty. Tell the Voo Doo priestess that she is wrong and her God is false. Tell the Blackfoot Indians that they are wrong and their God is false. Tell the Hindus that they are wrong and their God is false. No one can legislate what is truth and force it upon the masses. Free will and acceptance.



Do you reject my opinion that a truth must first be accepted by someone for it to be true to them? If so, I'd like to read your thoughts on the previous paragraph. It would prove interesting.



Your truth is your truth alone. No one has missed your point. Your point was made and accepted to a degree. Until you can have all of mankind believing in the same truth(s) then I can understand.



Once again, it must be accepted to be true. It matters not if it is actually true. If it is not accepted then it cannot be true to the person. You can measure it by your only means if you wish--but the real truth is that people believe and don't believe in the Almighty.



These are just my thoughts--not gospel. It is only for discussion so, please don't jump off into the deep end on me with loads of scripture and quotes. If you decide to do so--one should include the Talmud, the Quran, and other books of worship and law--not just the bible but, all aspects. I understand all of that and I am a believer in the Almighty.



I think I may leave the discussion at this point, since points have been made. I do not want to be misunderstood and it appears that it is heading that way. Thanks

[4Integrity]

If I may....



Truth Is... English Is The Devil's Language. None Of The Prophets Spoke It.



Truth Is... Once You Learn The Original Translation Of The Scriptures, You'll See What The Devil's Game Is.



Truth Is... There Is No J In Hebrew/Aramaic (The Language Of Yashua) So Why Do We Still Call Him Jesus.



Truth Is... What Religion Was Yashua And The Prophets And Do You REALLY Think It's The Same Thing That We Cling To Today?



Truth Is... Divine Love, Which Is A Love That Encompasses ALL. Earthly Love Is Only Its Reflection.



Truth Is... Organized Religion Is A Mind Trap Designed By An Elite Group To Centralize Control.



Truth Is... That's Exactly What Yashua Hated About The Religious Leaders Of His Time. He In Fact Stated, "Pure Religion Is Undefiled" Which Meant That



"Pure" (Untouched Like A Vrigin)

"Religion" (Comprehension Or Reverence Of The Most High)

"Is Undefiled" (Unchanged; Blemishless; Despite What Paul Or Anyone Else States After).



Truth Is... Yashua Said, "Not One Of Any Of The Smallest Increments Shall Be Removed From The Law Whatsoever."



Truth Is... To His Death, Yashua FOLLOWED THE LAW and Fullfilled It.



Therefore, Truth Is... To Be Christian One Must Be Christ Like NOT Paul Like!



Truth Is... Doing As Christ Did. He Promised That "Greater Things We Would Do Also."



Truth Is... Yashua Always Taught By Example Never By Doctrine Because He Didn't Have One. He Only Quoted The Law And Followed It To The LETTER...



BEWARE OF PAUL AND HIS FALSE TEACHINGS.

Study Yashua And His Words So You Can Recognize His Arrival Like The Theif In The Night. Look For Him In His Original Form Not What MAN Made Him After Death.



This Is In No Way Meant To Offend Anyone But Is Intended To Show The Love Of Truth. We Have Been Put Under A Spell Called Religion And The Only Thing That Will Break That Spell Is To Begin To Question Everything Before We Base Our "Soul" Salvation On It.

[KaosTheory]

Jersee wrote:

"Do you reject my opinion that a truth must first be accepted by someone for it to be true to them?"





This is the heart of what you are saying. I understand this. I admit that I get confused when you leave off the "to them" part at the end. That is an important part. Don't leave it out.



The confusion comes in because it seems that you are saying that there is no objective truth, which I now understand, you are not saying at all. That was why I was picking your brain.



I like your approach. I believe it is very wise.



BT,

How is it that you come to "Know" truth? Any truth? How can you ever really say that you "Know" it? If you are only an observer of God's truth and this physical world that he has put you in, how can an interpretation of and observation ever really be elevated to real "Knowing"? When you were born, you were totally ingorant. At what point did you come to "Know" something? Sorry for being a little redundant here. I am merely picking your brain. These kinds of discussions always get my brain cells working.



Did you get a chance to read "The Essence of Truth" ?

[TheBlackTruth]

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I have no idea how I missed all these posts since my last (being that i check this site every 20min at least! haha)

[/color]

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Originally Posted by Jerseee

I agree that there are certain truths that are undeniable--but if someone does not accept that truth--then it does not exist to them. No one can prove otherwise--only the person can admit to their folly. Just because what we have come to learn as right or wrong does not apply to someone else. This is the problem. They must freely accept that truth for it to [be] truth to them.

<font color=darkblue face=tahoma>

Jerseee,



You say you agree that "certain truths are undeniable," but how can that position be defended? Who decides what is "undeniable"? This is why truth is and must be considered absolute. That just leaves the problem of how to determine what is truth.



Your point seems to be less about what truth IS (definition-wise) and more about acceptance (personalization or conviction); and to that, i cannot disagree.



BTW, the ability to prove something or not, really doesn't speak to the definition of truth. This is mostly because even the standard of "proof" itself is subject to opinion.

[/color]

Originally Posted by Jerseee

BT if your point is right then there would only be one way to worship--there would not be multiple ways to worship the Almighty. Tell the Voo Doo priestess that she is wrong and her God is false. Tell the Blackfoot Indians that they are wrong and their God is false. Tell the Hindus that they are wrong and their God is false. No one can legislate what is truth and force it upon the masses. Free will and acceptance.

<font color=darkblue face=tahoma>

Which point is this? I think my point has been missed, or at least incorrectly applied. IF the Truth were that there is only one way to worship, then I suppose your statement would be accurate. But what if the Truth is that worship style isn't that important at all? I never made any such implication as to any particular subject-matter - worship or otherwise.

[/color]

Originally Posted by Jerseee

Do you reject my opinion that a truth must first be accepted by someone for it to be true to them? If so, I'd like to read your thoughts on the previous paragraph. It would prove interesting.

<font color=darkblue face=tahoma>

Well, I stated that in my opinion it is ambigous to say that Truth can be personalized. A personal conviction is just that: personal. If someone Accepts something AS truth, then it is a belief.



So. .."Truth to them" = a Belief



So to use substitution to understand your question I would rephrase your question as:



". . .a truth must first be accepted by someone for it to be a belief"



And I stated my opinion that a Belief is something accepted as Truth.



So to further substitute I would rephrase as:

". . .a truth must first be accepted by someone for it to be accepted as truth"



And to that, I agree .

[/color]

Originally Posted by KaosTheory

How is it that you come to "Know" truth? Any truth? How can you ever really say that you "Know" it? If you are only an observer of God's truth and this physical world that he has put you in, how can an interpretation of and observation ever really be elevated to real "Knowing"? When you were born, you were totally ingorant. At what point did you come to "Know" something? Sorry for being a little redundant here. I am merely picking your brain. These kinds of discussions always get my brain cells working.

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Well, any student of philosophy will tell you that "knoweldge" and "truth" are very closely related. Some would say observation is NOT the way to attain knowledge simply because it was determined you can't trust what you see. Some only rely on logic/mathematics or some combination (which is contemporary science) and some simply rely only on faith.



I'm not sure where in this group I lie, but I'd say its some sort of combination. I think certain knowledge is better gained using certain methods. .. How about you?



-BT



p.s. It was a mistake to put Bible Cites in my last post without qualifying them. I wasn't using the cites as examples of Truth but for examples of the DEFINITION of Truth.

[/color]

[Jerseee]

BT,



If no one believes in what you believe in--is it still truth for you?





Now I'm using your phrasing of turth and belief--not what KT and I agreed upon previously for discussion sake.