Angel With The Inkwell

for information regarding honor/dishonor, BoEs, and other things, Ms. Joy has lots to give.


for anyone who is interested, see http://www.angelwiththeinkwell.org


i believe ms. joy has good things to share with all of us.& there are workshops across the country.


i have been to one of her workshops and found it quite helpful.


jon

[FlunkyNoMo]

<U>"Share"</U> would be an interesting choice of words.


I, too, attended one of her seminars. It was $275&at that time, and I noticed that the workshop is up to $300 now. She appears to have a workshops somewhere or another every weekend. Do the Math! $300 x 10-15 (minimum) =$3000- $4500 per week, good money, yes? There where around 30 attendees, some (5-6) with only a chair, no table to write on. I'd also like to add that the workshop I attended (sponsored by TSN)&was disorganized and incomplete. It was mentioned that we'd receive a tape series of a complete workshop, but never did. I don't rule out the possibility that TSN screwed the workshop up, but Victoria took NO responsibility to make things right for the attendees.


http://angelwiththeinkwell.org/insidepg/catlist.htm this link will take you to a list of materials she is selling. <U>PLEASE</U> take a look at some of the titles of some of the docs She is selling. Do any of the titles look familiar? Some are in our download section here at Sui Juris for <U>free</U>, others are available for <U>free</U> at other websites.


Maybe this is a good idea(), Sui Juris could charge for things that are available for free and cut us all in for a percentage of the haul!!


Victoria uses a religious spin, which I find questionable. Freely I have received......and freely I will turn around and sell it???& People that truly have the Love of the Lord in Their hearts don't need to go around fashioning crosses or telling everyone how They serve the Lord, it is evident in Their walk, in the vibe one feels in Their very presence. Their are some that&claim not to buy-in to the whole "religion thing" (no names, but I hope You know to whom I am reffering) and are more moral, righteous, caring and loving more so then those filling the pews!!


If I have offended anyone, please see Amendment I.
& FNM

FNM,


& i laughed quite a bit at your humor in your last post.


i am not defending her when i write what is to follow.& only to make a point.


so what if she does make quite a bit from her workshops?& sometimes she breaks even on the workshops that she does (admittedly, according to her).& compared to some other ways for people to get knowledge she's actually quite cheap!& there are many others out there charging much more for information of lesser value.


so what if she appears to be religious?& actually, she would refute that claim - she is not "re-legioned" as she would say.& to each his/her own on that note is my philosophy.& however, note that the ucc does have roots in the christian religion (i am not versed in any other so couldn't comment there).


the TSN workshop was not the best - even Ms. Joy will attest to that.& the tapes from that workshop were not done properly (edited and so on), etc., and there's a big squabble about that - not for me to go into as i wasn't there nor party to the issue, but that is what i found out.& the host is responsible for the goings on at the workshop - that means tapes, tables, etc.& so perhaps TSN did more than drop the ball on the tapes.& again, wasn't there, can't really say.


as for the workshop i went to:& i haven't the funds to go anywhere.& right now i survive day to day and consider myself lucky my problems aren't worse, though they could get that way easily.& Ms. Joy understood all that and OFFERED TO GET ME THERE &amp; BACK AGAIN, AS WELL AS ATTEND THE WORKSHOP, AT HER EXPENSE.& how many people do you know would do that in this "industry?"& i hadn't met any.& in fact, all so far have been opposite when information was needed.& she's even given me documents she wrote for which she asks a nominal fee FOR NOTHING because of my situation.& again, how many are willing to do that?& now, suijuris is the first place i've been to where dox like the ctc3 VoD are freely given, even generated automatically.& honestly, i'm not sure how it is "getting away with it" unless the document itself is commonly available (where, i'd like to know).& and, top notch people to boot!


sorry to hear you had a not-so-good experience at her workshop FNM.& i, however, had a good one.& and perhaps others may as well.


jon

[Ice]

To be honest --


I've had it up to my eyeballs with "PAYtriots".


If anyone claims that they "break even" on a $3,000.00 dollar gig... they ain't truthful.


I could go from the west coast to the east coast, purchase hotel, food and the works for an entire weekend, and MAKE A NICE PROFIT from what Joy charges.


It ain't like she's paying for the entire seminar!...whoever is sponsoring it is picking up most of the tab... I'll bet on it.& No matter what the deal is -- I'll bet Joy has enjoyed profit&from&every seminar she's given.


They ain't doing it for love of god or country... they're doing it cuz they make big bucks from people that feel desperate and think they have no where else to turn, because they believe that this may be the silver bullet they're looking for or because they think this is another link in the chain of knowledge that they think will set them free.& People like Joy give these seminars for the profit... not for any other reason... and I wouldn't believe them if they stated otherwise.& And some would ask why I wouldn't believe them... well, I'll tell you why... BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T CHARGE SO DAMN MUCH IF THEY WERE DOING IT FOR ANY OTHER REASON!!!


Now, argue with that logic and I'll call you a fool.


(Ice is not a nice guy and is getting very ticked off at all the idiots and sheeple that still haven't got enough of being led around by the ring in their nose.& Ya'll better start waking up and stop paying for crap that you can get for free)...(by going out and learning it by the sweat of your brow, which suijuris kindly assists you with).


Am&I making a dent in some of those thick skulls yet?


[SuiJuirs, Sorry man.& I just can't handle the mentality of all these people that haven't learned how to shrug off that "I can't handle my life and need someone to show me how to do it" programming that BB has instilled in them from birth.& Geez!& It's one thing to seek info... it's totally different when you "feel" a need to pay hundreds of dollars for it!!& I think people that feel they need to pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for "assistance" with protecting and guarding their RIGHTS should just go back to being a good little 14th amendment slave and give up seeking freedom... because they lack the spirit, courage and determination to guard their Rights.


Maybe I'm having an off day... but I'm seeing things much too clearly and it is really scaring the hell out of me.& I can see the goosesteppers getting ready to walk all over America... and they ain't all from the "other side"... some of them claim to be from our own camp.]


&

ice,


since all this information is "for free" - where does one obtain the explanations of what is to be written upon the page when one is responding to correspondence from whatever agency.


specifically, where does one learn to write the lines that belong on a CA4V, a VoD, BoE, bond, etc.


how does one compile the lists of NAs.


SOMEBODY had to be the first one, and that somebody has passed that information down to other somebodys.


maybe that original somebody didn't charge anything, maybe it did, but the rest seem to.


for some people, these PAYtriots are a door to go through to find the remaining information.


for others, these PAYtriots are a good service (provided one can find a good one).


for a few, these PAYtriots are of no use - to one such as yourself who has obviously found everything.


ice, where did you find the "templates" you use to make your own documents?


what i'm getting at is there is a form to follow when replying to correspondence - some of us have learn by example.& some of these PAYtriots provide good examples.


my original post was only directed at people who were interested.& if you aint' interested, then just ignore it.& talk about arguing.


if it weren't for ms. joy's "material" i wouldn't know about honor/dishonor - which, btw, i ended up with for free by way of circumstance.& whether i paid for it or not, does that make it a bad thing?


jon

to continue...


i thought some more about your reply ice and i'd like to make a few points here:


1.& "all" information can be had for free.& obtaining it in an understandable manner &amp; timely is another thing.


2.& if someone chooses to "specialize" in a certain area, doesn't mean he/she is not entitled to some compensation for his/her efforts.& "a workman is worthy of his hire."& let's say "your" problem is $100k, and you paid someone $500 to solve it or help you solve it.& worthwhile, yes?


3.& not everyone is adept, or even able, at every thing.& hence farmers, blacksmiths, etc.


let's take computer programming as an example.& ANYONE can get a book, or obtain information about how to write a computer program in a particular language (html for example @ http://www.webmonkey.com, and there are even free tools for coding http://www.evrsoft.com).


BUT - does everyone have the time to learn it on his/her own?& most likely not.


does everyone have the aptitude to program?& most likely not.


does everyone WANT to know the ins and outs of programming?& definitely not.


does that make anyone who uses a computer, because he/she can't program it, irresponsible or reprehensible?& most definitely not.


does that mean someone who does decide to learn programming is NOT entitled to compensation for endeavoring to create something useful for whomever?& most definitely not.


even the government charges for the laws it creates - they are not free in any sense of the term.


jon

[Ice]

So, what you're saying is that Ice should gather up all the FREE STUFF he can find, organize it and hit the road doing seminars at $500.00 a pop selling what could be had for FREE...


And that would be just fine and dandy with you?


Do you know what really amazes me???... and this will get you to thinking... people would pay that kind of fee to hear Ice speak... and Ice can't tell them anything that they don't already know... or have the ability to find out quickly and at no cost.


That's what this forum is all about.& If a member needs info, the question is posted and a member that can offer assistance is able to offer it up.


You say that some don't have the aptitude to be programmers... is that implication that some don't have the aptitude to be Sovereign??& If someone does not want to know the "ins and outs" of protecting and guarding their freedom, then they don't want to be Sovereign all that bad... do they?


Allow me to give you an example of just how easy some of this stuff is.& I posted a letter a Sovereign received from a county sheriff in regards to a claim of a tax owed.& Not very many ideas have come from the membership as to how to respond to this letter... but some of the most important answers to the question I posed are all over this forum.


Hint: It can all&be as easy as asking a question.


Now, why would I want to pay hundreds of dollars to hear some long winded explanation that boils down to "ask the question"????


There are a few things that I would pay for... but they all deal with LAW AND THE COURTS.& I am staying far away from "redemption" -- in particular any process that includes writing "accepted for value" or some such nonsense on "presentments".& If you want to pay for something that is worthwhile... pay for an education in law and the courts -- put yourself on&a level playing field with an attorney.


If&any of the&so-called "experts" really want to do something for this country and the people you would see fees that are much more reasonable.& But you won't... because they are in it for the money.& What you will see is the price of such seminars going up as more and more people become involved in the quest for freedom.


jon, if you got your info for free... then you're one up on those that have had to pay for it.


I put as much as I can right here in this site, making it available to all the members.& Everything that may be of assistance to others will end up right here... available for free.& And you will find that the same info is being sold by the PAYtriots with a whopper price tag on it.& Please note FNM's above post which also points out that fact.


"Freely I have received...."


&

[Jerseee]

Jon,


I can agree with you to a point.& Ice and FNM has made a good case here but, i am contemplating writing an e-book on my experiences dealing with creditors, CRAs, and debt collectors.


Now I mention this because, in my e-book, i will offer no magical process or boilerplate documents that may or may not work.& besides when someone does that, i believe they incur an aspect of liability on a&cutomer's results.


with the e-book that i am writing, I offer something more valuable than fill in the blank documents.& In fact it is the same information that I offer here.& I offer education and a way of thinking within the system.& i offer empowerment and independence through my experience.& And most of all, i offer different strategies on how to use the current system to one's advantage.


in fact, I promote the current codes and statutes in the e-book because you can use them just like the agents can use them.& All you have to do is find the ones that support your position.& is that simple or what?


Now, in my e-book, i will reference this site as a source of information that you can get for free.& so basically what i am trying to say is that I can sell my experience which is something of value that can't be bought since the only way you have access to that information is through my approval.& so folks will be purchasing my experience not a redemtion package.That other stuff that folks are selling is actually free, like Ice said.


this is just my position on this subject.I cannot really judge folks for trying to earn a living--just as long as its honorable.

(replies below)


So, what you're saying is that Ice should gather up all the FREE STUFF he can find, organize it and hit the road doing seminars at $500.00 a pop selling what could be had for FREE...



And that would be just fine and dandy with you?


why, yes, ice, that would be fine and dandy by me.& doesn't mean that i'd necessarily pay to see you, but you have every right to gather information, etc., and collect a fee from those willing to give it to you for the priviledge.& you did, after all, work to collect that information and present in a fashion that makes it easy for people to assimilate.


just like if i were to build a wall for you.& i can go and collect the plentiful stone around your yard, build your wall per your spec, and then ask for compensation.& what's wrong with that?


with regards to "free" information, heck, colleges and universities assess educational fees to disseminate easily digestible versions of information that, for the most part, could be gotten for "free."



Do you know what really amazes me???... and this will get you to thinking... people would pay that kind of fee to hear Ice speak... and Ice can't tell them anything that they don't already know... or have the ability to find out quickly and at no cost.some people, ice, may NOT know and would benefit from your speaking.& particularly if you explain things and share your experiences, etc.



That's what this forum is all about.& If a member needs info, the question is posted and a member that can offer assistance is able to offer it up.


and that's why i'm here.


You say that some don't have the aptitude to be programmers... is that implication that some don't have the aptitude to be Sovereign??& If someone does not want to know the "ins and outs" of protecting and guarding their freedom, then they don't want to be Sovereign all that bad... do they?there are some who wish to be lead around by the nose rather than learn to be free.& now, if everyone started off life KNOWING how to be free, i doubt everyone would behave as they currently are (speaking of the general populus).



Allow me to give you an example of just how easy some of this stuff is.& I posted a letter a Sovereign received from a county sheriff in regards to a claim of a tax owed.& Not very many ideas have come from the membership as to how to respond to this letter... but some of the most important answers to the question I posed are all over this forum.



Hint: It can all&be as easy as asking a question.



Now, why would I want to pay hundreds of dollars to hear some long winded explanation that boils down to "ask the question"????some people, ice, don't know to "ask the question" let alone which question to ask.& few were taught this kind of thinking from the start.& so for them such a route may be necessary.& freedom comes with a price, always.



There are a few things that I would pay for... but they all deal with LAW AND THE COURTS.& I am staying far away from "redemption" -- in particular any process that includes writing "accepted for value" or some such nonsense on "presentments".& If you want to pay for something that is worthwhile... pay for an education in law and the courts -- put yourself on&a level playing field with an attorney.i neither agree nor disagree with your statement - your choice was to go that way.& some may not think that the route for them.& i believe there is more than one correct route of things.



If&any of the&so-called "experts" really want to do something for this country and the people you would see fees that are much more reasonable.& But you won't... because they are in it for the money.& What you will see is the price of such seminars going up as more and more people become involved in the quest for freedom.i agree.& law of supply and demand.



jon, if you got your info for free... then you're one up on those that have had to pay for it.



again, i agree.


I put as much as I can right here in this site, making it available to all the members.& Everything that may be of assistance to others will end up right here... available for free.& And you will find that the same info is being sold by the PAYtriots with a whopper price tag on it.& Please note FNM's above post which also points out that fact.i agree because i know from personal experience.& which is why i'm super happy that this site is here and glad those with knowledge are willing to share in this manner.



"Freely I have received...."


and freely shall i give as i can, either in learning or as having learned and know.


jon

jerseee,


writing an e-book of your experiences would be a good thing.& same for ice.& same for anyone who had specific, documented-to-the-end success.& or even failures.& knowing what doesn't work and why is just as good, sometimes, as knowing what does.& history only repeats itself if you forget or ignore it.


with regards to the inclusion of specific documents, i ask you this question:&


if a maker of knives sells a knife to a customer who then murders another with said blade, does the knife maker owe the murdered's injured parties anything?


the answer:& no.


why?& because the knife maker only made a tool.& the customer who bought the tool is the one who committed the crime.


i'm sure there is plenty o court cites to support such a position.


note that's different from a faulty knife that injures the customer.


knowing what you know jerseee, i think you could come up with something that would satisfy the specifics without harm.& if a document, etc., worked for you, and you shared that with others, as far as i'm concerned you have no liability there.& however, if you fraudulently claimed the document worked, when, in fact, it didn't, then you deserve an a**-kickin'!


as for ms. joy's morality in doing what she's doing - i cannot speak for it, nor would i wish to.& if she's doing because of goodness, then wonderful, if not, she'll face the music.


jon