Contractor's licenses??

In response to RickA:

Originally Posted by RickA

To take The Great Owl's post a little further. There is a way to hold those who, through gross negligence, offer less than acceptible workmanship. First, stop using those folks, who's only claim to fame, is a certificate stating they are competent.

Yes, this is exactly what people should do, however, how much good does that do you when your house burns down along with your wife and kids thanks to that shoddy wiring job some electrician just did on your house? Granted, the license does not do much good in that case either, but at least the guy who gets one has to have the ability to obtain it, before he can work on your house, better that you know he is somewhat competent and financially responsible before you put your property in his hands.

Second, use men/women who care enough to help in the constuction to have acceptible workmanship.

Also a good idea, but people who are in business are concerned with their bottom line, and how much protection do you have if that becomes paramount over your satisfaction?

Another way of looking at it would be to deal with people who would treat your need of work as if they were working on their own. To take it to the fullest, deal with men/women who love their neighbors as they would themselves.

Too bad this type of individual is few and far between. Not too many of them in business either. Otherwise, there would be no need at all for any regulation, would there?

[Rlynne]

In response to Kurtw

No, this line of thinking is merely what I stated it to be, that minimal protections should be provided, and the government is the natural choice for that.

I can relate to alot of what you're writing because I use to be idealistic that way. However once the government get a foothold, which by the way starts as minimal intervention, it will grow to be what we see today, GIGANTIC.

But the governement at least mandates that a bond be provided assuring that bills are paid, and you have immediate recourse if you get a shoddy job.

Ha, oh really? In June 2001 Houston saw a flood like none before. Residents were told to use only "licensed professionals" which many did. There are homes still unlivable because of licensed contractors deciding the job required more than what they originally estimated to the homeowner and just stopped work. What did the government do? Nothing.

However, the only way to change things in the government is to vote the SOB's that allow agencies like the FDA to cater to big business out of office. How many people here don't vote because "it doesn't make any difference"? How else do we get rid of those bastards?

You must be joking, if voting had the effect you mentioned government wouldn't be oversized and operating free of the constraints of "We The People".

Yes, this is exactly what people should do, however, how much good does that do you when your house burns down along with your wife and kids thanks to that shoddy wiring job some electrician just did on your house? Granted, the license does not do much good in that case either, but at least the guy who gets one has to have the ability to obtain it, before he can work on your house, better that you know he is somewhat competent and financially responsible before you put your property in his hands.

A license don't offer any assurances.

Also a good idea, but people who are in business are concerned with their bottom line, and how much protection do you have if that becomes paramount over your satisfaction?

I agree it appears that way but luckily there are still those who feel their work quality will bring forth more work, therefore it's important to them to leave satisfied customers.

Otherwise, there would be no need at all for any regulation, would there?

You will have regulations whether or not you have shysters wrecking havoc, it's about GREED and control.

[RickA]

Not only what RLynne stated with her example in Houston, go around the country, to where alot of homes/aprtments/condos etc are being built. Your insistance on bonded help doesn't quite pan out there. The workmanship of these places are atrocious at best.

Kurt, the point to my earlier post is that all this work can be done without paying a tax for permission to do the very same work that did not need permission before.

[onair]

I'll be very interested in hearing the "whole truth" from the CCI perspective. CCI railed on city government for 2 years, distorting the truth on occasion, to advance their agenda. Now, they are the ones crying about misinformation in the election season.

The "whole truth" is that CCI lost it's most prominent member, Jon Wagar, shortly after the 2004 elections. They've been trying to flex their muscle through needless petition after needless petition ever since. All powers can be abused, even the power of petition, and CCI has abused it to the Nth degree.

They have told our community that the city is taxing residents out of their homes, based on new home valuations. The "whole truth" is that the city's budget increased only $15,000 since the new valuations. That's not even enough to cover increases in fuel and health insurance. The county and the school district robbed residents to the tune of an extra $650,000. But no CCI members are running for school board or county commission. They are all running for city offices, trying to replace those that didn't take any money. It's nothing but personal politics from CCI. A group that started doing good has turned to the "dark side".

CCI is not the crusader for the people it claims to be on this forum. They have tried to quash the right to free speech, and they have employed scare tactics and fear mongering to force their ideals down our city's throat, and the result is gridlock. The city will be more free and better off when CCI is defunct as an organization.

In response to Rlynne:

Originally Posted by Rlynne

In response to Kurtw I can relate to alot of what you're writing because I use to be idealistic that way. However once the government get a foothold, which by the way starts as minimal intervention, it will grow to be what we see today, GIGANTIC.
Sorry, I am not idealistic, more like realistic. You cannot have a society without some sort of control. As a libertarian I prefer MINIMAL control. The founders of this country were libertarians, they tried to set up a government that was under control of the people. It only works when the people maintain control over the government. Thanks to apathy, greed, and ignorance, we have lost that control. And a lot of the posts I see on forums such as this show that ignorance.
Ha, oh really? In June 2001 Houston saw a flood like none before. Residents were told to use only "licensed professionals" which many did. There are homes still unlivable because of licensed contractors deciding the job required more than what they originally estimated to the homeowner and just stopped work. What did the government do? Nothing.
You don't want government involvement but here you indicate that maybe the government should have done something? The government did do something, they required a bond that the people who got shafted could go after to recoup at least part of their loss. They had the right to sue the party who wronged them, there are also, at least here in Washington state, procedures set up by the government where a party who got screwed by a contractor can get that persons license revoked so they cannot continue to do shoddy work. What other safegaurds do you want? As was stated elsewhere, you can merely just stop using a contractor, but how do you let others know to avoid this person, word of mouth only goes so far. Put an ad in the paper? You would probably get sued for that by the contractor. As I stated, at least there are SOME recoursed an individual can follow thanks to that license from the government.

You must be joking, if voting had the effect you mentioned government wouldn't be oversized and operating free of the constraints of "We The People".

Don't vote? Then don't bitch about how things are. How else are you going to effect change? I think you need to rethink that statement. If you don't vote, then you have no say at all about what the government does. If you get people together and vote out the ones in office who are destroying our country, then we can effect change. Sitting on your hands and whining about how things are does not help anything. How do you think you have a voice in this country? By voting. Complaining about how things are in a chat forum will not solve anything.

A license don't offer any assurances.
I agree it appears that way but luckily there are still those who feel their work quality will bring forth more work, therefore it's important to them to leave satisfied customers.

Sure a license offers assurances. It at least tells you that the individual is somewhat monitered by the government, that you have administrative recourses in addition to your legal ones. If you were to hire people who do not have a license as some have stated here, your only recourse is the courts, or your baseball bat. And all you have is that persons say so that they know what they are doing, at least with the license, they have to post a bond that offers minimal assurance that they do, otherwise you can lay a claim against that bond, and recoup some of any loss.

You will have regulations whether or not you have shysters wrecking havoc, it's about GREED and control.
Yep, it sure is about greed and control, but unless we vote different people into office, nothing will ever change. If you know someone who has the integrity you are looking for, why not prompt that person to run for office? As things stand now, most people only vote for one of two parties. The party line is voted, not the individual. If you vote Rep. or Dem., you are voting for what the party wants, not what you want. I am a libertarian, but I do not belong to, or vote the libertarian party line, I look for an individual who agrees with my views first, then go downhill from there if one is not available, and go for the best pick.

[FreeFromContract]

Originally Posted by RickA

Not only what RLynne stated with her example in Houston, go around the country, to where alot of homes/aprtments/condos etc are being built. Your insistance on bonded help doesn't quite pan out there. The workmanship of these places are atrocious at best.

Kurt, the point to my earlier post is that all this work can be done without paying a tax for permission to do the very same work that did not need permission before.

There was a time that people in the community or a town knew by word of mouth who was a reliable tradesman. If the work was not up to par, the person would make good on repairs or suffer damage to their reputation. As the ease of mobility increased, so did the opportunity for people to relocate into areas where their work was not known and offer services.

To address the need of building a reliable and ethical business community, the Better Business Bureau was created in the early 1910's. However, our use of the BBB as a source to locate reputable service providers has dropped significantly in the past 35+ years (the establishment of licensing programs and regulations have gone up significantly during this time. A conclusion could be drawn that people are more trusting of a licensed service provider - how many contractors listed in the yellow pages include the BBB logo in their ad today?).

I recall a story from 60 minutes (10-15 years ago) concerning a group of people (from one of the Carolina's I believe) who would travel across the country who were involved in a home repair scam. These people would drive through neighborhoods looking for homes with roof or other major features that were in need of attention. They would then approach the homeowner (focus on elderly) and convince them the home had a serious problem in need of immediate attention. The goal was to get them to write a check. Once goal was achieved, the homeowner would never see them again.

What I'm getting to is this. You should not rely solely on a license, association in an ethical organization or even second hand referral (and I, being especially synical, don't even rely on first hand knowledge unless I've dealt with a person for years).

As most of you know, this is where the importance of a contract with clearly defined performance and acceptance criteria should be set along with clauses clearly defining payment schedules, timeframes for guarantees and correction defects. If you don't like certain provision of their contract, discuss it and strike it out or modify it. If they want a chunk of money up front that seems unreasonable to you, discuss it. If you still don't feel comfortable with it and they won't modify it, walk away.

In my opinion, these licenses may generate a warm fuzzy, but in any written agreement you need to establish the exact performance criteria otherwise you may be without recourse (if you rely upon the State to provide the recourse, good luck). The best we can all do is educate ourselves and (more importantly) our children the significance of the content of a document and significance of our signature upon it.

To that last item, let me ask, how many of you have taken the time to explain to your kids (assuming they're old enough to comprehend) the importance and significance of signing their name on any piece of paper once they're of the age of consent (or even before then in some instances)? Do they know they can change or cross out clauses they're not comfortable with or don't understand, or that they can write duress or coercion if being forced to sign something they aren't willingly signing?

If you have not, what are you waiting for...the schools to teach it to them?

[Rlynne]

If you don't vote, then you have no say at all about what the government does.

As long as I'm apart of We The People I'll have my say. In the present moment even "voters" are being told to be quiet by government. If you read the beginning of Rory's thread you read how the town's mayor in a meeting told someone he didn't want to hear what they had to say.

So we agree to disagree on the power of voting.

Sitting on your hands and whining about how things are does not help anything.

Most people who visit this forum are doing things, be they big or small actions, the point is they're doing something. Having a discussion on a topic is hardly whining. If it is, then Sui Juris is where whiners convene. This is where people exchange ideas and opinions.

Complaining about how things are in a chat forum will not solve anything.

Again this is a place where people discuss issues. People here don't always agree with one another but each is entitled to their opinion and readers can take it like a grain of salt. Exchanging ideas and discussing outlooks helped Rory, it gave him ideas on how to deal with licensing issues in his town.

You don't want government involvement but here you indicate that maybe the government should have done something?

No what I did was point out how licensing didn't prevent shoddy work or gave any guarantees the job would be completed. Yes I agree with you people could sue or pursue other remedies.

If you were to hire people who do not have a license as some have stated here, your only recourse is the courts, or your baseball bat.

The same remedies apply no matter if they have a license or not.

[RickA]

If you were to hire people who do not have a license as some have stated here, your only recourse is the courts, or your baseball bat.

The same remedies apply no matter if they have a license or not.

Bingo! The same can be said for the permits that Rory and others in his town have to contend with. On top of that, the permit is actually more devious, one is said to be required to have to ask for permission for something that needed no permission before.

I guess all I can say is that what it boils down to is personal opinion. I have dealt with building departments, spent 6 months in court against them actually, for doing nothing other than building a small shack on my property. I have been an excavating contractor twice and finally gave it up because it is hard to bid against those people who don't care about decent work and cut corners so they can beat others out of work. So, I at least have personal experience in these matters. No, I don't agree with them, but people have to do more than talk about it. I do think though, that there has to be some sort of minimal control in any society in order for it to function. Once it gets out of control, the people have to step in and get it under control again.

As far as voting goes, I will stick with my original statement, if you don't vote, don't bitch. In our form of government, a representative one, the only way to affect real change is to vote out those who represent us. You really have no other alternatives other than to rebel. Which do you prefer? We have a good system of government here, so long as it is ran properly. However, ignoring the responsibility of voting to keep things in order is just plain wrong. Involvment by the people is what used to keep things running right in this country, but the apathy of those who don't bother to do their civic duty is what has gone wrong.
The only other alternative is to spend lots of time in the courts. But so long as the people who are making the rules are the same ones who are usurping our rights, we have no chance. The only real alternative is to get those people out of office.
Nice chatting with you folks, but I am going to unsubscribe from this thread

[RickA]

I guess all I can say is that what it boils down to is personal opinion. I have dealt with building departments, spent 6 months in court against them actually, for doing nothing other than building a small shack on my property. I have been an excavating contractor twice and finally gave it up because it is hard to bid against those people who don't care about decent work and cut corners so they can beat others out of work. So, I at least have personal experience in these matters. No, I don't agree with them, but people have to do more than talk about it. I do think though, that there has to be some sort of minimal control in any society in order for it to function. Once it gets out of control, the people have to step in and get it under control again.

Kurt, I understand where your coming from and the truth is, until we get back to doing for others instead of letting the government do it, we will be governed accordingly. The minimal control you speak of was once in the hands of the people, in that they lived according to love thy neighbor as thyself.

As far as voting goes, I will stick with my original statement, if you don't vote, don't bitch. In our form of government, a representative one, the only way to affect real change is to vote out those who represent us. You really have no other alternatives other than to rebel. Which do you prefer? We have a good system of government here, so long as it is ran properly. However, ignoring the responsibility of voting to keep things in order is just plain wrong. Involvment by the people is what used to keep things running right in this country, but the apathy of those who don't bother to do their civic duty is what has gone wrong.
The only other alternative is to spend lots of time in the courts. But so long as the people who are making the rules are the same ones who are usurping our rights, we have no chance. The only real alternative is to get those people out of office.
Nice chatting with you folks, but I am going to unsubscribe from this thread

If your set on unsubscribing, it has been nice chatting with you as well, if not then, keep chatting away.