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  #11  
Old 11-01-2004, 08:42 AM
TheBlackTruth TheBlackTruth is offline
Mental Jujitsu
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
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LAND PATENT SUCCESS

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJT04
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackTruth
<font color=darkblue face=Verdana>Onemaster, I agree with LT2DOGS.



The losses you posted above seem to point to inept, poorly litigated cases by litigants who were unprepared, uneducated and misguided.



Check out the cases i posted in the article i submitted.



Onemaster, Your solution is #5 in that your claim against the bank is that their action would be a taking in violation of your absolute title to the property. The bank only has an "interest". An interest is always something less than title.



-BT[/color]

GOOD POINT BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ACTUAL FRAUD AND BREACH OF CONTRACT ISSUE. SHOULDN'T THIS BE THE MAIN FIGHTING TOOL AGAINST THE ALLEGED LENDER?

<font color=darkblue face=verdana>

PJT04,



My comment was restricted to the context of the defense of a Land Patent and the allodial title it implies. Breach of Contract and Fraud, although valid claims, are matters completely independent of the Land Patent.



-BT

[/color]
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:40 PM
Don Don is offline
Waking Up
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 15
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

Hi All



Notice Ice's post. My Land Patent case has nothing to do with Mortages, Judgements, or Loans.

Mine is a case of a City GOVERNMENT trying to take my property through eminent domain. I beat them at thier own game through the help and inspiration from several people on this website (Special thanks to Ice and Jerseee) and Johnny Liberty's book.



Land Patents can also be used to avoid paying GOVERNMENT taxes (property tax), but they (GOVERNMENT) will fight you back by suspending services, such as Police, Fire, Water, Sewer, Public Schools etc.. If you are autonomus of these needs you can not pay and the Law will protect you.



As Ice said in another post, you don't GET a land patent you just bring it up to date so you can use it. This way it brings your law to the top of the pile by superceding the laws enacted after the time of the original patent. Your law is stronger than State or City or County laws, because the state had not happened until after your original Patent.



Yes, this is a SUCCESS STORY, I was able to keep property that I worked hard for the GOVERNMENT money to buy, and it remains mine because MY LAW is better than THIER LAW.



Thanks, DON



If everyone would have learned to respect other peoples property we wouldn't need government.
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2004, 06:37 PM
TheBlackTruth TheBlackTruth is offline
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LAND PATENT SUCCESS

<font color=darkblue face=verdana>Thanks for the clarification, Don.



One of the points I was trying to make is that Mortgages are a completely separate issue than Land Patents. Mortgages deal with "Real Estate" whereas Land Patents deal with "Land". . .they are two altogether separate animals!



-BT[/color]
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"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker, a raving lunatic." --Dresden James
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  #14  
Old 11-04-2004, 07:10 PM
HenryBowman
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

Don, can you drop me an email?



I sure would love to talk to you within the next four or five days,



My foreclosure sale is set for 11-16



Thanks



HB
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  #15  
Old 11-05-2004, 07:52 AM
PJT04
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackTruth
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJT04
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackTruth
<font color=darkblue face=Verdana>Onemaster, I agree with LT2DOGS.



The losses you posted above seem to point to inept, poorly litigated cases by litigants who were unprepared, uneducated and misguided.



Check out the cases i posted in the article i submitted.



Onemaster, Your solution is #5 in that your claim against the bank is that their action would be a taking in violation of your absolute title to the property. The bank only has an "interest". An interest is always something less than title.



-BT[/color]

GOOD POINT BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ACTUAL FRAUD AND BREACH OF CONTRACT ISSUE. SHOULDN'T THIS BE THE MAIN FIGHTING TOOL AGAINST THE ALLEGED LENDER?

<font color=darkblue face=verdana>

PJT04,



My comment was restricted to the context of the defense of a Land Patent and the allodial title it implies. Breach of Contract and Fraud, although valid claims, are matters completely independent of the Land Patent.



-BT

[/color]

YEAH I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. HOWEVER, I BELIEVE MOST PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM ARE WONDERING IF ASSERTING YOUR RIGHTS IN THE LAND PATENT WILL STOP THE FORECLOSURE. I DON'T THINK SO. MOST OF US HAVE "MORTGAGE LOANS" AND I FOR ONE WOULD LIKE TO SEE A SUCCESSFUL CASE INVOLVING THE LANDPATENT.
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  #16  
Old 11-05-2004, 08:05 AM
jmunson
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

from what i understand, the land patent only applies to the land, not the real estate. it is the real estate that is encumbered by the mortgage, not the land, thus the land patent would not stop a foreclosure.



however, i've also read that once you've brought the patent forward, no person, individual, flesh-and-blood living soul can step or trespass upon your property without your consent, no matter the circumstance...but that could be erroneous... if that is true, then it would effectively cease any attempt to 'claim' the foreclosed 'property.'



anyway, that's my limited knowledge, and it could be quite wrong, at this point...



jon
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  #17  
Old 11-06-2004, 10:25 AM
networth2
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

Jon,



I believe you are correct. Land and real estate are two completely separate issues. A Land Patent secures your right in the land NOT the real estate if it is mortgaged. So although securing a land patent is directly unrelated with your rights (or lack of them) in the real estate, it could be INDIRECTLY related.



For instance, if you are the rightful "heirs or assigns" to the "land" by properly securing a land patent, then you are the LANDLORD of the land. If the bank has real property situated on your land, then can't you charge them monthly ground rent? And if they don't pay, after giving them notice, can't you, as Landlord, evict them from your land? And once they are evicted, can't you post NO TRESPASSING signs on YOUR LAND? And if they trespass, can you not then bring them to court and sue them for damages?
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  #18  
Old 11-06-2004, 10:35 AM
networth2
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

My last post does not deal with the "mortgage". And securing a land patent DOES NOT directly attack the bank or defend yourself against foreclosure, except to the extent I suggested above. However, even if the bank prevailed against you on the foreclosure action, IF you had a VALID land patent, it would seem logical that you could frustrate the heck out of them by doing the above.



However, if the bank is sucessful in their foreclosure actions, when they come to force you off the land, you should be ready to leave, unless you want the sherriff to put you in jail and take everything of yours and lock it up as well. It's a lot easier to litigate OUTSIDE of jail, as opposed to being INSIDE.



By the way, you cannot have a VALID land patent if someone between the original land patent owner of your property and you has been foreclosed on. This is the case with my property.



The original owner sold and assigned the property to a subsequent owner, who sold and assigned the property to another person years later, who then were foreclosed on. The bank took possession and then sold it to someone else. There were several owners of the land/property between that owner and us.



So, the only way I can get a VALID land patent is to find one of the heirs or assigns of the first three VALID land patent owners and get them to Quitclaim Deed the land to me. Because the third owners never sold or assigned their interest to the bank who foreclosed years ago, nobody after the foreclosure has ever held proper title, and consequently everyone since has only had "color of title".
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  #19  
Old 11-06-2004, 11:27 AM
networth2
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

OK, sorry for all the posts, but the majority of posts on this thread refer to questions about HOW to stop foreclosure.



I'm not sure about non-judicial foreclosure, because I'm involved in a judicial foreclosure. I was railroaded in a summary judgment hearing that the judge just granted to the bank, without allowing me to go to trial.



I just woke up to the reasons why, and it is all PROCEDURAL. What I mean by this is that the summary judgment process is governed by the local (in my case) or federal rules of civil procedure. I now understand what happened to me after reading over and over again the local statute (which basically mirrors federal statute) that governs summary judgment hearings.



In short, it disallowed me to present witnesses and proof of my counterclaims against the plaintiff, which is against the 6th amendment of the US Constitution, as well as violates our state constitutional rights to a trial to have our case heard.



Secondly, the closest thing to testimony brought forth by the Plaintiff's is affidavits. As I understand it from Cornforth in the Tinsey v Pagliaro case (which I cannot find on lexis or caseclerk by the way), competent witnesses must be sworn in and give testimony (and examined) to support any documents and their authenticiy (which I have challenged in my pleadings).



Because I opposed the veracity of the affidavits presented by the Plaintiff, their so-called "evidence" cannot be used to substantiate any final decision.



THE FOLLOWING IS IMPORTANT



Because there was NOBODY from the bank who was present when the documents were signed, NOBODY from the bank has personal knowledge as to whether or not I signed the PN or DOT. Additionally, I believe the bank would be hard pressed to produce someone who understands ALL the material facts in the agreement, or more importantly is the actual person who drafted the PN or DOT. If you challenge (or object) to the affidavits or any testimony by the person(s) from the bank who signed the affidavit(s) who say they have "personal knowledge" of the PN and DOT, you ask them these two things; (1) Were you present during the signing of any documents by us? and (2) Did you draft the PN or DOT yourself?



If the answers to both these questions are "NO" (and I can't believe they would be otherwise), then their affidavits are without personal knowledge and they should not be considered a competent witness.



So the question would then be, "Does the bank have any competent witnesses that they could bring forth to testify to the validity of the PN or DOT, or to the fact that you signed them? The only person usually at the closing is a title officer who notarizes any signatures. But what can they testify of? The fact that you put your handwriting to documents? Did they construct or draft the PN or DOT? Do they have personal knowledge of the contents of the documents? Then can they attest to your agreement or intent to authenticate the document? Did they know that the bank was going to create money from depositing the PN into a transaction account in the bank without your authorization? Did they know (and bring up various other points of the contract... and breach thereof). The point is that the title officer only witnessed you put your handwriting on pieces of paper they call a PN, DOT, and several other documents.



The bottom line, is that the lower courts will usually rule against you in a summary judgment hearing BEFORE any trial can be had, because they do not want witnesses to be deposed or examined with the questions you will ask that they cannot answer without giving testimony to their fraud (See www.bankhonest.com and Tom Schauf's 3 manuals).



Without allowing you the opportunity to depose witnesses, requests for admissions, request for documents (originals), or Interrogatories, you have been denied due process. You can file a request for a new trial, but will probably be denied since you are asking the judge who railroaded you in and out of the summary judgment hearing anyway. But at least you have asserted your objections to the form of testimoney submitted by the plaintiff, the court's denial of your right to due process, etc.



If you are in a non-judicial foreclosure, take it into court and make it judicial by filing a claim against the bank. Be careful you don't claim that they defrauded you. Fraud is very difficult to prove. Claim that the breached the agreement by.... (read Tom Schauf's books)



I've listented to Cornforth's first recording (in download section on this site) and he talks about filing a Motion for Preliminary Injunction, as well as a Lis Pendens. It is my understanding that all the Lis Pendens does is create a cloud on the title that will prevent any title company from issuing title insurance on the property for anyone wanting to purchase the property LATER. This (as I understand it) will NOT stop foreclosure. It WILL, however, piss the bank off, and cause them to try to get it taken off.



What Cornforth doesn't say is how it should get recorded. If you have pending litigation (which is one of the requirements for filing a legitimate Lis Pendens), it gets filed in the judicial case file, but title companies do not research the court files (as I understand it) when doing a title search, and therefore would not find it. So I would ASSUME that we would attempt to have the county recorder's office officially record it.



Doe anyone have a form that they have used for filing a Lis Pendens????? This would be helpful in the download section.



Also, if the court (and odds they will) decide against you, and you haven't had your day in court to deny that you "signed" the documents presented in court (as defined by the UCC and your local statutes that mirror the UCC), then you have many grounds for appeal.



Most people stop and give up after the trial court makes a judgment. Just make sure you assert the proper questions and objections during litigation in the lower court. Otherwise, you can't bring up new issues when you appeal. Appellate court usually only deal with the record of the lower court and do not decide on any new issues.



Any thoughts on these issues would be greatly appreciated in some substantive form that would help people like Bowman, Onemaster, and others (like myself) who are presently in foreclosure.
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  #20  
Old 11-06-2004, 12:21 PM
HenryBowman
 
Posts: n/a
LAND PATENT SUCCESS

NW,



I have not filed a lis pendens, yet.



Reading your post does raise an interesting question, though.



If I sue the bank and motion for an injunction, couldn't I file a lein on my own property as well?



HB.
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