Alternative I.D.

[Akira]

Jerseee,

Originally Posted by Jerseee

Hell, if you can do the same thing with an affidavit, then why do all of this?

All I meant was that I haven't seen the docs first hand yet, so I have no way of knowing if your position isn't already addressed in them. If it isn't, it ought to be. Your point is well taken, and should be accomidated, either thru modification of the docs, or in a separate aff. The last thing we need to do is backpedal.

For HIS Glory,
Akira

[dadmoonbunny]

Originally Posted by Jerseee

Weis,

Very good rebuttal.

So this whole thing hinges on rebutting presumption? Well I did read some of the stuff on the site and if I were convinced of it--I would support it. But because I am not convinced of it--does not mean I did not read it.

And correct me if I'm wrong here (going back to the rebutting presumption thingy), for someone to "expatriate", doesn't this imply or even state that you were once patriated?

I mean for example, you can't have an ex-wife--if she was never your wife to begin with. Now if she is not or has never been your wife--how can you have an ex-wife?

Furthermore, if you rebut that she is your ex-wife--then by reason, she was once your wife.

Thus, if you never patriated, how can you ex-patriate? Unless you say that you are patriated and now wish to expatriate....this makes more sense. Just like, I'm married but now I want a divorce.

Look bruh, this is how I see it. Once you do that stuff--you're admitting things being patriated at one time or another through default. You can't be something you never were. If they wanted to, they could come back and claim that you were once patriated--and now you can never rebut that claim because you "expatriated".

Be careful homie.

good discussion my man!

Jersee, et al:

Here goes nuthin'... It is my understanding that the documents that tie us each to BB have to be "rebutted", or cancelled (it's too early for me to remember the proper word). So, As part of expatriation, of course you rebut the presumption and the documents as well. Anyway, that's my thinking. Now, for you further advanced folks out there, In hope that my thinking isn't too simple. I tend to view everything as a step by step process.

Sic Gorgiamus Alus Subjuctatos Nunc

[Jerseee]

Weis,

I do understand all of what you are saying and what pacinlaw is saying, but we don't have to do all of that. Its already done. It just seems redundant to repeat what they already know and for us to "present satisfactory evidence" that we are who we say we are, is ridiculous.

Why do I need to prove to you who I say I am? this does not make sense. It pits me against myself.

And as far as the CRA stuff you used for an example--that is their property, so they are the ones that state what is correct and what is not--one can only play in the that game--which belongs to them.

Short-changing my education on this maybe right or wrong--but the underlying fact is, a simple affidavit stating who you are, is enough.

I've said it before and I'll say it again---There is no paperwork that one can do that can cure the ills of this situation. The only thing that can cure your situation is to know who you are and how to protect and defend your actions if attacked.

If you can't defend your documents--then they are worthless. This is one reason why I do not favor alot of these groups. Because they are peddling their wares instead of educating folks thoroughly on "Self-Reliance" and not using someone's emotions of hatred of the system against them.

Instead, of guiding the person who is sick and tired of the system, to use their energy in a more productive way....these groups out here just egg on the hate and appeal to the person's pocket---as if throwing FRNs at the problem with solve their problem.

Give it away for free but invest in one's education. Pay it forward. everyone and anyone that I assist that has met success, I demand that they help someone else, just as I did them---no charge. This is what this boils down to for me. Just as I support something openly--I will criticize something openly the same way. And from my experience, when you start doing documents and affidavits in their system, be prepared to see them again and tried to be used against you! Gotta know how to defend your documents.

I hope this works for people--its just not for me.

[Jerseee]

I gotcha.

thanks

Originally Posted by Akira

Jerseee,

All I meant was that I haven't seen the docs first hand yet, so I have no way of knowing if your position isn't already addressed in them. If it isn't, it ought to be. Your point is well taken, and should be accomidated, either thru modification of the docs, or in a separate aff. The last thing we need to do is backpedal.

For HIS Glory,
Akira

[Jerseee]

Originally Posted by dadmoonbunny

Jersee, et al:

Here goes nuthin'... It is my understanding that the documents that tie us each to BB have to be "rebutted", or cancelled (it's too early for me to remember the proper word). So, As part of expatriation, of course you rebut the presumption and the documents as well. Anyway, that's my thinking. Now, for you further advanced folks out there, In hope that my thinking isn't too simple. I tend to view everything as a step by step process.

Sic Gorgiamus Alus Subjuctatos Nunc

Dadmoonbunny,

This is not so. You see, those statutes and codes that they are using are derived from laws and there is already laws out there that support this and there is no need to do all of this stuff. Here are some case law that supports what I keep saying:

"Once jurisdiction is challenged, the court cannot proceed when it clearly appears that the court lacks jurisdiction, the court has no authority to reach merits, but rather should dismiss the action." Melo v. U.S. 505 F 2d 1026

"There is no discretion to ignore lack of jurisdiction." Joyce v. U.S. 474 2D 215.

"The burden shifts to the court to prove jurisdiction." Rosemond v. Lambert, 469 F 2d 416

"Court must prove on the record, all jurisdiction facts related to the jurisdiction asserted." Latana v. Hopper, 102 F. 2d 188; Chicago v. New York 37 F Supp. 150

"The law provides that once State and Federal Jurisdiction has been challenged, it must be proven." 100 S. Ct. 2502 (1980)

"Jurisdiction can be challenged at any time." Basso v. Utah Power & Light Co. 495 F 2d 906, 910.

"Defense of lack of jurisdiction over the subject matter may be raised at any time, even on appeal." Hill Top Developers v. Holiday Pines Service Corp. 478 So. 2d. 368 (Fla 2nd DCA 1985)

To further prove that it is not our responsibility to rebut a presumption, here is an excerpt of the FRE on "Presumptions":

FEDERAL RULES OF EVIDENCE (ANNOTATED)
ARTICLE III. PRESUMPTIONS IN CIVIL ACTIONS AND PROCEEDINGS

Rule 301. Presumptions in General Civil Actions and Proceedings :
In all civil actions and proceedings not otherwise provided for by Act of Congress or by these rules, a presumption imposes on the party against whom it is directed the burden of going forward with evidence to rebut or meet the presumption, but does not shift to such party the burden of proof in the sense of the risk of nonpersuasion, which remains throughout the trial upon the party on whom it was originally cast.

[weishaupt1776]

Originally Posted by Jerseee

FEDERAL RULES OF EVIDENCE (ANNOTATED)
ARTICLE III. PRESUMPTIONS IN CIVIL ACTIONS AND PROCEEDINGS

Rule 301. Presumptions in General Civil Actions and Proceedings :
In all civil actions and proceedings not otherwise provided for by Act of Congress or by these rules, a presumption imposes on the party against whom it is directed the burden of going forward with evidence to rebut or meet the presumption, but does not shift to such party the burden of proof in the sense of the risk of nonpersuasion, which remains throughout the trial upon the party on whom it was originally cast.

Why not increase the burden and make it really heavy for those suckers?

Why limit yourself?

[weishaupt1776]

Originally Posted by Jerseee

I've said it before and I'll say it again---There is no paperwork that one can do that can cure the ills of this situation.

[b]True, and this is also the position of LB at pacinlaw.org

Originally Posted by Jerseee

The only thing that can cure your situation is to know who you are and how to protect and defend your actions if attacked.
If you can't defend your documents--then they are worthless.

In the red Amendment he makes that very clear that it is up to you to walk the walk & talk the talk (hereinsetforth., WWTT). He reminds the reader that knowledge of court procedure and the law is paramount

Originally Posted by Jerseee

This is one reason why I do not favor alot of these groups. Because they are peddling their wares instead of educating folks thoroughly on "Self-Reliance" and not using someone's emotions of hatred of the system against them.

LB and the People's Awareness Coalition do not fit into that category.

Originally Posted by Jerseee

Instead, of guiding the person who is sick and tired of the system, to use their energy in a more productive way....these groups out here just egg on the hate and appeal to the person's pocket---as if throwing FRNs at the problem with solve their problem.

I encourage you to email him and talk to him before putting the man and the process into that category

Originally Posted by Jerseee

Give it away for free but invest in one's education. Pay it forward. everyone and anyone that I assist that has met success, I demand that they help someone else, just as I did them---no charge.

I know LB and others that know him. Yes, he charges, but he is dirt poor, like alot of us. All he does is research and beef up his website and processes. The paperwork helps him pay rent and printing costs, etc . . .He wants to do this for free or for a minimal charge, but is restrained from doing so due to people wanting to have it both ways (Receiving government benefits while claiming to be sovereign).
I personally know that he is not a PAY-triot

Originally Posted by Jerseee

I hope this works for people--its just not for me.

Well, The National ID Card in 2008 isn't for me either.
They sure ain't gonna be puttin' the STRAWMAN's biometric info on that!

After doing much due diligence for the past few years, I see no other remedy as far as playing their game in regards to identifying oneself so they are happy; but at the same time, not subjecting yourself to them

I prefer to establish an insurmountable admin record, put the Provost Marshall, Sheriff, DMV, on notice AFTER THE RECORD is clear, and if there is a snag, setlle it in private w/my docs and knowledge to back it up without being incompetent thus impeaching myself

When the BUREAURATS come after you, Filing an affidavit at the last minute stating how sui juris you are is not really a careful approach to all of this

[leez50]

I just recieved an Apostille from the Ohio Sec of State, my birth state, for a document I titled Letter of Ohio State Citizenship. I first sent a letter addressing him personally and informed him that I was born a freeman and was a de jure Citizen and that my allegiances have always been first to my birth state and then to tha American Republic and thier respective Consitutions (organic), then asked him to give me a document something like a sample I provided with his signature and seal( my offer). His office people sent me the conditions in order to get his seal as an Apostille or a Gold Seal of Authenticity for thr doc ( his conditional acceptance). So I created the doc and printed it on 100% cotton with watermarks like a security paper with a jurat for the notary. I had it notarized authenticating that I was who I said I was (the doc had my picture and under that,my name followed by Ohio state Citizen, date of birth and the state, county, city of my birth),then took it to the countyclerk of court to authenticate the notary, then sent it to the office of the Sec of State (my acceptance of the conditions) and they authenticated the clerk of courts and Apostilled my Letter of Ohio State Citizenship (fullfilling the offer). The one paragraph above my Picture read,
The Ohio Secretary of State, Ohio State, United States of America; hereby requests all who it may cocern, to permit his sovereign Ohio State Citizen named herein, to pass without hinderance and in case of need, to give all lawfull aid and protection.
I consider this a foooter to build a solid foundation on.

Originally Posted by leez50

I just recieved an Apostille from the Ohio Sec of State, my birth state, for a document I titled Letter of Ohio State Citizenship. I first sent a letter addressing him personally and informed him that I was born a freeman and was a de jure Citizen and that my allegiances have always been first to my birth state and then to tha American Republic and thier respective Consitutions (organic), then asked him to give me a document something like a sample I provided with his signature and seal( my offer). His office people sent me the conditions in order to get his seal as an Apostille or a Gold Seal of Authenticity for thr doc ( his conditional acceptance). So I created the doc and printed it on 100% cotton with watermarks like a security paper with a jurat for the notary. I had it notarized authenticating that I was who I said I was (the doc had my picture and under that,my name followed by Ohio state Citizen, date of birth and the state, county, city of my birth),then took it to the countyclerk of court to authenticate the notary, then sent it to the office of the Sec of State (my acceptance of the conditions) and they authenticated the clerk of courts and Apostilled my Letter of Ohio State Citizenship (fullfilling the offer). The one paragraph above my Picture read,
The Ohio Secretary of State, Ohio State, United States of America; hereby requests all who it may cocern, to permit his sovereign Ohio State Citizen named herein, to pass without hinderance and in case of need, to give all lawfull aid and protection.
I consider this a foooter to build a solid foundation on.

Did the Ohio SoS sign off on that paragraph?

Thanks

Henry Franklin

[Ice]

leez50,

Gee, that sounds like a passport !!

Ice