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  #11  
Old 06-01-2006, 10:15 AM
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citizensoldier citizensoldier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
It may have been the result of a plea bargain or some similar negotiation.

Sure - it couldn't have been the law did not support the IRS/ DOJ action, eh?
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2006, 10:32 AM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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I would have thought that it was negotiation because the IRS gave up simultaneously, and without an evident struggle, on all of the counts. Otherwise I'd expect the IRS to fight to save at least some of the indictment.

Subsequent news about these people may be more revealing.
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2006, 10:35 AM
Questionmark_Y Questionmark_Y is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
It may have been the result of a plea bargain or some similar negotiation.


In your list of 'may' possibilities, is it possible that the Law was on the side of the defendant?
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  #14  
Old 06-02-2006, 08:10 AM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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It is certainly possible that the law was on the side of the defendant in some of the issues, but it seems very unlikely that the DOJ and IRS were wrong on EVERY issue, yet they dropped every issue simultaneously, without even trying to hang on to even one issue. This is why I think some sort of negotiation was involved.
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  #15  
Old 06-02-2006, 06:04 PM
Questionmark_Y Questionmark_Y is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
It is certainly possible that the law was on the side of the defendant in some of the issues, but it seems very unlikely that the DOJ and IRS were wrong on EVERY issue, yet they dropped every issue simultaneously, without even trying to hang on to even one issue. This is why I think some sort of negotiation was involved.

Which issues do you believe were in doubt and which were 'good' and therefore negotiated?


Do you have any factual information that a deal was made?
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  #16  
Old 06-02-2006, 08:29 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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You seem rather obtuse about this.

The DOJ lawyers are good enough that at least some of their charges are plausible and worth fighting for. They all looked good to me, but I am not an expert. The possibility that all of their charges, every one without exception, were so hopelessly defective that they gave up on all of them all at once is too remote to persuade me. That they didn't even try to defend or prolong a fight for even one charge suggests something was worked out by negotiation.

If I knew for a fact that there had been a deal made, I wouldn't have said "suggests".
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2006, 01:15 PM
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Here's some docs related to the case
Here are the docket and pleadings from a recent “income” tax case, criminal in nature, that was prosecuted by the USA.* It appears that it was over from start to finish in just under 60 days.* Oscar Stilley, who has been known to collaborate with Lindsey Springer, was the attorney for the defense.* As you may or may not know, most of the time in these tax cases, the defense stipulates to the exhibits of the prosecution, and that, together with jury instructions, is pretty much that for the defendant.




*You can see from the exhibits the government introduces that the evidence consists mostly of transcripts (IRS records), which will be attested to by some agent as being the basis for the violation.* It appears to be fatal error to allow these to be put up and attested to without a fight.* After all, who was that data entry clerk and what personal first hand knowledge did she/he have of the material he/she was inputting?* No objection, no basis for appeal.




*Stilley didn’t stipulate to anything, and you can see by his bill of particulars that he wanted definite charges defined.* Also, he asks when where and how a tax was assessed, when penalties were assessed and what kind of tax the defendant was charged with having to pay, or was his crime that he didn’t file?* If it was that he didn’t file, what form specifically, was he mandated to file?* Later, the bill of particulars was denied.* It is my understanding that Stilley insisted that the speedy trial time be kept, and didn’t give the USA much wiggle room.* I love Stilley’s proposed voir dire.*




When Stilley entered his exhibits, which were most of the exhibits from Lindsey’s website www.penaltyprotestor.com or www.penaltyprotestor.org , which shows there is no valid OMB number on the 1040 forms, which are merely information gathering type forms and must have a valid OMB #.* Oops.*




The USA says, at this point, that they didn’t know Stilley was going to the Paperwork Reduction Act, and they’d need more time to get their witnesses in line to attest to the PRA as to who is required to fill out the non valid OMB # forms, or who is NOT required to fill them out.* The government was given till close of business on the 12th to put up their list of witnesses.* Instead, it put up a motion to dismiss with prejudice and the order was signed.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Robert_Lawrence_v_IRS.zip (934.1 KB, 39 views)
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  #18  
Old 06-04-2006, 02:53 PM
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Smile Good News.

Thanks for the additional information weis.

By the way, it seems clear there was no deal or negotiations, of substance, with the government.

Finally, the attorney, Stilley, appears to be rather atypical. It appears that he has risked his BAR membership fighting for his clients in the past.
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  #19  
Old 06-04-2006, 08:10 PM
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That Pesky Paperwork Reduction Act

Quote:
Originally Posted by weishaupt1776
When Stilley entered his exhibits, which were most of the exhibits from Lindsey’s website www.penaltyprotestor.com or www.penaltyprotestor.org , which shows there is no valid OMB number on the 1040 forms, which are merely information gathering type forms and must have a valid OMB #.* Oops.*

Indeed. Missing OMBs and the Paperwork Reduction Act can be a real pain in their butt.
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  #20  
Old 06-04-2006, 10:14 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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The OMB argument has been tried, repeatedly, and rejected, consistently, in court. So I doubt that the IRS dropped the case because of that.
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