should I fill out a w-4

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by Notorial dissent

Unless your employer’s payroll department is totally brain dead, they will tell you “Nice try, NO cookie,” and hand you a W4 and tell you to complete it and sign it. They are required by law to do this, and a homebrew exemption certificate is not going to fly.

If you persist, they will do one of the following: terminate you on the spot as being more trouble than you could possibly be worth, or file you as Single and 0 exemptions, which means you will get the maximum taken out of each pay check. This too is in the regulations, that if an employee either refuses or fails to file a W4 then it shall be entered at Single and 0,

Bear in mind that employers are subject to fine if they do not have W4's from all employees, so they will insist on it being done and done properly. It is not voluntary.

Redeem your FRNs before you ever touch them. Redeem them in lawful money according to Title 12 U.S.C. §411. Do not involve your new employer at all. It does not matter whether Notorial Dissent is correct about that being Title 26 - the IRS Code or not. A very scary IRS agent will say it is over the phone to Payroll.

Therefore just anticipate there will be a tax liability and send Withholdings at the proper Exemption rate of deduction for you as the taxpayer. Redeem your paychecks all in lawful money and honestly report $0 taxable income at the end of the tax year.

If the IRS agent argues with you ask him how to redeem lawful money for your paychecks. You are obviously not doing it correctly. However the non-endorsement stamp clearly evidences that you were trying to...

If push comes to shove then file a Libel of Review in the US district court upon the IRS keeping your Withholdings over the year when you were redeeming all your pay in non-taxable lawful money.

If push comes to shove have a federal judge explain how a simple interpretation of the law is incorrect...

They (FRNs) shall be redeemed in lawful money upon demand at any...

Regards,

David Merrill.

[RICKO]

Originally Posted by Notorial dissent

Unless your employer’s payroll department is totally brain dead, they will tell you “Nice try, NO cookie,” and hand you a W4 and tell you to complete it and sign it. They are required by law to do this, and a homebrew exemption certificate is not going to fly.

If you persist, they will do one of the following: terminate you on the spot as being more trouble than you could possibly be worth, or file you as Single and 0 exemptions, which means you will get the maximum taken out of each pay check. This too is in the regulations, that if an employee either refuses or fails to file a W4 then it shall be entered at Single and 0,

Bear in mind that employers are subject to fine if they do not have W4's from all employees, so they will insist on it being done and done properly. It is not voluntary.

ND is correct. There is a program in place here. The minute you want to disrupt that, you are asking for trouble and especially (no pun intended) when you do not know what you are doing. I'm not questioning the accuracy of Title 26, but does the payroll office and employer know what that is? Does the IRS agent know what that is? Chances are none of them don't. I don't mean to be a buzz kill, but I surely do not want to see anyone get into any trouble that's all.

[redy2fiyt]

Since the tax code is admittedly the most complicated document on the planet, why not just use David Merrill's technique. It would seem much simpler to use Title 12 U.S.C. §411 that is cut and dry, than to try to take on the IRC.

Additionally, the goal here for most is to fly under the radar. By signing your w-4 with R4C or by using the agreement from Dillon (which by the way, looks pretty damn good to me), you are waving a red flag to the IRS and you are placing your job in jeopardy. I'd redeem the FRN's for lawful money and go about my business.

That's just me though.

[RICKO]

Originally Posted by redy2fiyt

Since the tax code is admittedly the most complicated document on the planet, why not just use David Merrill's technique. It would seem much simpler to use Title 12 U.S.C. §411 that is cut and dry, than to try to take on the IRC.

Additionally, the goal here for most is to fly under the radar. By signing your w-4 with R4C or by using the agreement from Dillon (which by the way, looks pretty damn good to me), you are waving a red flag to the IRS and you are placing your job in jeopardy. I'd redeem the FRN's for lawful money and go about my business.

That's just me though.

I would have to agree.

[palani]

Originally Posted by cartier4672

I'm about to be hired for a new company. I've been reading about the diffrent tax laws as of recent. I need to know should I fill out a w-4, and if not would should I give to my employer since they require it. My understanding of this is this allows your employer to basically become the tax collector on part of the IRS.

You need to fill out this form if
1) you have looked and found that there is a law that requires you to.
or
2) you are relying on others to look for this law to tell you that it is necessary requirement.
or
3) the opinion of others means more to you than the law.
or
4)all of the above.

Of course I don't expect these to be the ONLY reasons one can find to fill out the form. Duress (vi et armis) and temporary insanity could also be included as reasons.

[Dillon Hunt]

The IRS is a third party interloper. All or most w-4's are filled out after the offer of employment. They are violating their agreement to hire you if they fire you for it. If you really want the job do a R4C on the w-4, if not have some fun with an employer who is a pain in the butt. Employers will not like the R4C either. Maybe ask the Employer's legal department to prove their claim. All this is confidential and nobody at work other then HR / legal department and the boss need to know. David's answer about non-endorcement of checks, I think is a great idea.

Maybe tell employer, I will handle my own Tax matters, thank you.

[RICKO]

Originally Posted by palani

You need to fill out this form if
1) you have looked and found that there is a law that requires you to.
or
2) you are relying on others to look for this law to tell you that it is necessary requirement.
or
3) the opinion of others means more to you than the law.
or
4)all of the above.

Of course I don't expect these to be the ONLY reasons one can find to fill out the form. Duress (vi et armis) and temporary insanity could also be included as reasons.

So people who file are insane according to you. Or maybe the true reason ( at least one out of a million) why people may file would possibly be that that person does not wish to get into any trouble because he or she has several mouths to feed and getting into to it with the IRS or their employer is the last thing they need right now. You ever think of that palani.

[David Merrill]

You need to fill out this form if....

You like or need that new job!

Coercion and fear is all the IRS has. They will use these techniques to get their way.

So don't give it to them. Don't even involve your new employer. Possibly the bank may complain about the non-endorsement, because they cannot lawfully fractionalize lawful money. So get that certified copy of the law ordered and in your hand.

If it comes to them mentioning it, play a little ignorant. Show the corporate attorney or Payroll attorney the law and tell them you want to redeem your FRNs in lawful money without ever touching FRNs. [It makes no sense to get FRNs and then redeem them in lawful money because that defeats the whole purpose.]

Let the attorney there at your new job figure it out for you. All you want to do is handle lawful money. You do not want any private credit from the Federal Reserve. If there is nothing to the verbiage on the non-endorsement stamp, then there is nothing to it. The bank has no complaint to pass on to your boss about how you cash your paychecks.

If you are getting private credit from the Federal Reserve, then you are obligated to Title 26. Your employer can lawfully fire you for messing around with the W-4 Withholding process. Your new boss is subject to fines and like that if they try accommodating you.



Regards,

David Merrill.

[palani]

Originally Posted by RICKO

So people who file insane according to you.

Not at all. Simply looking at the decision making process and attempting to tie up all loose ends. Non compos mentos certainly needs to be considered. I don't recall reading anywhere in any regulations that the government will not take money from insane people.

I suppose another case is if one is a practicing communist. Maybe you actually do believe in enslaving your children to the nth generation to pay for your own hedonistic excesses. I might feel a sense of sorrow for someone who has these morales but that doesn't change the reason.

Or maybe the true reason ( at least one out of a million) why people may file would possibly be that that person does not wish to get into any trouble because he or she has several mouths to feed and getting into to it with the IRS or their employer is the last thing they need right now. You ever think of that palani.

That might be a good reason .. fitting in, keeping a low profile, going along for the sake of the security of loved ones. I might question whether greater security might be achieved by not taking the the 'easy' route.

I am quite sure there are other cases that are rational that I haven't considered.

[Dillon Hunt]

Your boss will not pay any fines if he requested the info and you did not provide it. The form w-4 is called the Employee's Withholding Allowance Certificate. Allowance means you allow the Employer to withhold your taxes. It's voluntary. An agreement if you will. The irs will not even let you use this form to exempt yourself totally from withholding. Try it if you don't believe me. It also has the wrong perjury statement, it should be : The Undersigned hereby verifies, under penalty of perjury, under the laws of the United States of America, without the "United States" (federal government), that the above statement is true and correct, to the best of My current information, knowledge, and belief, so help Me God, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. 1746(1). You don't live in D.C. do you? You may not like this but if you sign the w-4 and you live in a State like the Repulbic of Texas you just committed Pejury. At least attach a separate statement to the w-4 with the correct perjury statement. The same might be done for the I-9 form. check out

http://www.originalintent.org/edu/i-9.php