Property taxes

[cowboy]

Anyone have any experience with eliminating property taxes ?

Personally I think this is a bigger problem than IRS, (at least with the IRS you always have the option of working under the table for cash... etc) with the property tax there doesn't appear to be a way out ???

[wanttobefree]

sure go to the recorders and search for tax exempt parcels you will see that their are people that do not pay. so yes it is possible with proper ownership.

[Notorial dissent]

You will need to go the TAX ASSESSOR'S office, the recorder only records deeds. The Assessor's office will have the tax status of the property.

And, once there you will find that the only property that is not taxed/tax exempt is either owned by the govt, a church or religious organization, or a non-profit organization.

If you own property, you have to pay property tax on it.

[mrg]

Originally Posted by Notorial dissent

If you own property, you have to pay property tax on it.

Is the term "tax" generic or specific?

If specific, what is the precise and specific definition in law of the term "tax?"

If generic, does the term "tax" apply to specific terms of "taxation?"

As you have used the term "property tax" is the "tax" in the nature of a duty, a levy, a fee, a tariff, a lien, contribution, dues, rent, or what, specifically?

Is the "property tax," as you use it above, cyclically recurring, or limited to one specific term or occurence of taxation?

What is an endless cyclically recurring tax on the same property called?

Can you/will you identify, define, describe, illustrate, and demonstrate, in law, of law, and by law, the full, complete, and precise parameters and technical financial mechanics of "owning property?"

If "property" can be endlessly, cyclically, and recurringly "taxed," or otherwise regulated outside of the basic self governing concepts of common law, how, precisely, does one actually, in fact, "own" "property?"

Does one, in actual fact, "own" one's car if one has "paid" off the so called "loan" used to "buy" the property, or has "paid" "cash" for an affordable used car?

If so, what are the precise mechanics that enable absolute proof of total and complete ownership of that property by the flesh and blood man or woman in privacy?

Is it by title?

By possession?

By valid bill of sale?

By all?

By some other instrument of proof of ownership?

If by title, does one actually "own" title to that car?

Is "title" to the car "property?"

Whose "property" is the title, and how is "ownership" of the title proven?

By actual physical possession?

Who "holds" title to the car, and why would, or how could, the physical title be "withheld" from the so called "owner?"

Where is the actual physical "title" "held?"

What is "certificate of title" and how, precisely, does it differ from "title?"

Is "certificate of title" "property?"

If one "buys" a new car is there documentation provided by the manufacturer," proving its manufacture and origin of manufacture?

Does the manufacturer send that documentation to the dealership where one might have "bought" that car?

If not, where does it go, and why?

If so, what does the dealership do with it when they "sell" a car, and why?

If the documentation does not go to the "purchaser," where does it go and why, and is there a disposition of the document in any way shape or form?

How might "paying" for a new car in "cash" be somewhat problematic, if one has the "cash" to do so?

How (other than by robbery) might having the "cash" to do so be problematic?

If one pays for a newly manufactured car in "cash," one would then hold the actual physical documentation provided by the manufacturer," to the vendor, proving its manufacture and origin of manufacture, as well as a valid bill of sale from the vendor?

Does the dealership "pay" the manufacturer for their inventory on delivery, or does the manufacturer deliver without the cars having been "paid" for by the dealership?

How, precisely does that whole transaction work?

Would the vendor "sell" a car that it has not yet "paid" for, and then take the "payment" from the purchaser the vendor "sold" the car to and then "pay" the manufacturer?

If so, did the manufacturer "loan" the car to the vendor?

Was the manufactured merchandise property itself the principal object of the "loan," or was "credit" the principal object of the "loan" to the vendor?

What specific forms of "payment" are acceptable by such a vendor of a car aquired from a manufacturer?

What specific forms of "payment" are acceptable by such a manufacturer from a vendor?

And what of "real estate," and "land?"

Is there such a thing as "unencumbered" "ownership" of property?

Any and all "property," or specific, limited, and defined "property?"

Does the term "encumbered" have any residence at all in the term ownership?

If so, precisely howso?

If so, does not that make the concept, as well as the reality, of "ownwership" decidely a moot point?

Can "ownership" be "conditional?"

If so, how can one rightfully call such a condition of condition "ownership?"

If so, why might a "taxing agency" choose to call something what it is not?

Is there such a thing as private ownership by a flesh and blood man or woman?

Is there such a thing as private ownership of property by a flesh and blood man or woman?

If so, is there any limitation to "property" that can be "owned" by a flesh and blood man or woman, in privacy?

What exactly is "property?"

Can property be "encumbered?"

If property can be encumbered can that property be "owned?"

Can a flesh and blood man or woman have property ownership, in freedom, and privacy, of a car, house, or land?

If so howso?

If no, why not?

Is "ownership" in any way, shape, or form, and in some or any cases, perhaps but a figure of speech?

There exists the state of "involuntary servitude," the admission of such, and it is conditionally lawful, yes?

Since that is so, is there not also such a thing as "voluntary servitude," admitted as a result of the admission of "involuntary servitude?"

If so, can you/will you identify, define, describe, illustrate, and demonstrate, in law, of law, and by law, the full, complete, and precise parameters and technical mechanics of the workings of such a state of existence?

In such a state, would the flesh and blood man or woman in voluntary servitude be "property?"

If you can and will answer, will you answer in entirety, in order of presentation and put a quote box around each question, so that if one wishes to respond to your answers it will be convenient for them to do so?

If you intend to demean my work, will you provide specific reason, with particularity, as to the nature and cause of your holding such demeanor?

If you intend to demean my work can you/will you do so without demeaning the worker personally?

If any of this is difficult to comprehend, can you/will you identify specific points of incomrehensibility, and put reason to such?

tax


A burdensome or excessive demand; a strain.
tr.v.
to make onerous and rigorous demands on
To make difficult or excessive demands upon
To make a charge against; accuse

[B Rookard]

Originally Posted by cowboy

Anyone have any experience with eliminating property taxes ?

Yep, sell your property. Can't pay property taxes if you don't own the property.

[mrg]

Today, 04:36 PM

B Rookard
This message is hidden because B Rookard is on your ignore list.

The same day one leaves, another shows up.

What a coincidence.

Does his Viewer Profile page need updating?

I kind of really like the way it reads now.

Especially that signature.

Wonder how and why that got there?

[B Rookard]

Originally Posted by mrg

The same day one leaves, another shows up.

What a coincidence.

Does his Viewer Profile page need updating?

I kind of really like the way it reads now.

Especially that signature.

Wonder how and why that got there?

Good substantive posts mrg.

Lol. The signature line got there because the mods think it's funny when they put it there.

Glad to see that mrg would rather follow me around making the same post.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

Find the right form from the tax assessors office and check the right box. 'Exempt'. How about -'homeless shelter'? Or 'private property'? Try to research the supporting regulations to look for clues.

Heres what I would do-

1. Deed property to a corporate name (just a private trust). Super easy, did it many times. This first step is not absolutely required, but helpful for privacy.

2. Have trust or whoever sign over all right, title, interest, use, posession, etc to another 'person' (another trust-name). Make this a real tight security agreement and include an executed 'quit-claim' deed as part of the package.

3. File this in the UCC real-estate section of the local recorders office. Also file as a mortgage, and as a mechanics lien. Just do it, and take yes for an answer. I did it.

4. All of the above transactions will accrue a filing number. Now execute another 'quit-claim deed' (only needs one signature- of the one quitting), and DEED THE PROPERTY OVER TO THE COUNTY. I am not kidding, give it to the county, the empty title that is. Sign it All rights reserved: subject to ucc file # xxx, lien # zzz, mortgage # hhh, so thats clear. Give the county business address for the owner address

Now what happens?

They can't take the property, they never bought it and you have all these prior liens and securities against the property. They have no actual right to the place. You even have the real title, included in the liens etc. You can always foreclose and take the property back whenever you like. (make sure the security is well written and clear)

The tax statement will go right back to the county, where it will either be

paid
exempt
or ignored

2 out of 3 gets you out of the property tax. Keep track of the situation and see if the property becomes exempt or the tax paid.


Send private message and I will forward an example security agreement that might be helpful.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

there have been a few private responses to the esarlier post suggesting a method to force the state to exempt a property. Below I have posted some heretofore private interchange, fyi:

forwarded copies of legal docs for reference purpose only- because are from various sources and need be adjusted your situation.

Worse case scenario, you have to foreclose on your own property to take the offical title back from the county. No harm done. Or it doesnt work, taxes keep accrueing but you leave the new situation as is, since your rights are as protected as before, maybe better.

Its a great way to hide ownership of a property...register it in the states name. Hide things in plain sight.


"I want to get the system itself to legally and quietly acknowledge the situation using their own rules. Thats why I urge you to research what makes a property exempt just by simple application. I like the idea of having it declared a 'homeless shelter'. Its true!

The method I proposed is another angle on that, to get the property declared 'exempt', by reason of public ownership. It would also exempt from many other things, like municipal liens for sewers and such. Or maybe they will just pay it themselves. Either way suits me.

The problem I see with other methods is that we end up sending off a bunch off 'notices' to various departments, certified mail, so we can argue later. Maybe we need to actually use the available forms to apply for the new status. For example, apply for a new social security card, or driver license, and make it subject to the accompanying affidavits, security agreements, commercial notice, or whatever. Write "attached docs must accompany in the signature line, subject to file #xxx" and so forth, just as I set out in this property tax process.

This way our papers get in their system direct and on the record. Its like a very detailed "non-assumpsit", or "a General No Warranty Agreement"


BTW- by doing this you could possibly beat a bank mortgage as well. If you foreclose on the house through your registered mortgage and security agrement, the porperty gets sold at auction and the mechanics lien comes first, and takes all the proceeds, by law.

If the bank forecloses on the house the same thing. So they might not want to do that, unless they want to contest the validity of the lien.

If they just foreclose on the title (non-judicial foreclosure) then your liens are intact, they lose their mortgage position, and you foreclose on THEM.

Either way it makes a you a prickly porcupine and could help.

What I have done successfully is answer a foreclosure attempt from the bank with an affidavit of specific negative averment, denying the existence of all parties, contracts, the state, everything. What the banks attorney did was file 'praecipe for new case', basically renew the case, start over, each time I did this, rather than answer my affidavit. And I in turn would file, 'Judicial Notice of the previous Affidavit', and we would play tag like that. It lasted for a year and then for personal reasons I had to leave the area so they ended up with the house. My liens are still there and I would like to go back to that area and try to foreclose on the present owner (the title insurance will cover it). the bank did a sloppy job (maybe on purpose) and never included my liens in their foreclosure process.

An aside- the same 'exemption' situation applies to transfer and sales taxes. Usually the form contains a list of 'exemptions', like 'transfer to county' , or 'transfer to trust', or 'transfer to secured party', all of which can be made to work in your favor.

[Notorial dissent]

You are so clever and innovative, you just make my head swim.

Originally Posted by farmer_giles_of_ham

Find the right form from the tax assessors office and check the right box. 'Exempt'. How about -'homeless shelter'? Or 'private property'? Try to research the supporting regulations to look for clues.
And when they ask for the exemption certificate you are going to show them what?

Heres what I would do-

1. Deed property to a corporate name (just a private trust). Super easy, did it many times. This first step is not absolutely required, but helpful for privacy.

2. Have trust or whoever sign over all right, title, interest, use, posession, etc to another 'person' (another trust-name). Make this a real tight security agreement and include an executed 'quit-claim' deed as part of the package.

3. File this in the UCC real-estate section of the local recorders office. Also file as a mortgage, and as a mechanics lien. Just do it, and take yes for an answer. I did it.

4. All of the above transactions will accrue a filing number. Now execute another 'quit-claim deed' (only needs one signature- of the one quitting), and DEED THE PROPERTY OVER TO THE COUNTY. I am not kidding, give it to the county, the empty title that is. Sign it All rights reserved: subject to ucc file # xxx, lien # zzz, mortgage # hhh, so thats clear. Give the county business address for the owner address

Now what happens?

They can't take the property, they never bought it and you have all these prior liens and securities against the property. They have no actual right to the place. You even have the real title, included in the liens etc. You can always foreclose and take the property back whenever you like. (make sure the security is well written and clear)

The tax statement will go right back to the county, where it will either be

paid
exempt
or ignored

2 out of 3 gets you out of the property tax. Keep track of the situation and see if the property becomes exempt or the tax paid.


Send private message and I will forward an example security agreement that might be helpful.

or email to inverness@hushmail.com

We have to give up everything in order to get everything. Its very Christian.

You are so clever, I just can’t begin to express my admiration for your sterling intellect.....

except that you keep shooting yourself in the foot, and then firing the gun off again and again to see if it is still loaded.

What part of once you sign that deed to the county it is theirs, and they can do whatever they feel like with it, don’t you get?

As for your silly little collection of subterfuges, there is a little procedure called a quiet title action, which the county can instigate, where your collection of silly paper will be looked at and deemed fraud and declared null and void leaving you standing there with your mouth open wondering what happened. This is even assuming the county accepts the transfer, which they won’t without having the county attorney look it over, and the recorder will send the document to the county attorney to be looked at before they file it.

What you will have accomplished is to so completely muddy your title that you will never be able to sell it without going through a quiet title action yourself, which by the way is quite expensive, and unless you actually own the property free and clear, your mortgage company will be having cows of assorted size and color, and foreclosing upon said mortgage for violation of terms.

You might also want to look up your state’s statutes on fraudulent conveyances, and filing of fraudulent liens, since the ones you are contemplating have no legal validity.

You might also want to look into your state’s tax statutes to see what the penalties are for pretending to be a tax exempt entity without the proper documentation, almost always entails serious fines, and depending on the circumstances jail time as well.

Yep, real clever plan here, give your property away for nothing, and maybe get some jail time as an added bonus.