ssn, w-4's, and employment

[suijuris]

I agree with Ice. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

TaxRebel, you said: "Find another way to get your money back from the tax man."

I understand that the W-4 acts as authorization for the employer and IRS to keep "YOUR" money. So, how does one go about getting that money? Is it really "YOURS" after you sign the W-4 contract?

Regards,
Sui Juris

[Ice]

I believe that we should hold them to the law the same as we are held to the law.


Have you ever been presented with a LAW that states you MUST have an SSN, fill out a W-4 or file a tax return?& Have you ever been presented with a LAW that states an employer MUST GET THAT SSN FROM YOU or the employer would be in violation of the LAW?


I have not been presented with any such law.And people are routinely prosecuted, as well as persecuted,&for violating these laws that DON'T EXIST.


AND TAXREBEL WANTS TO ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE BY DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT.


If one is accountable to the LAW, then all are accountable to the LAW.& Or in other words, NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.


&

"AND TAXREBEL WANTS TO ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE BY DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT."& Ice


I believe in keeping a low profile.& Having no SSN is a HUGE redflag for the employer, and you.I've&been there, done that.&


I've just joined a new group that claims they have been getting refunds for people on the 1041. I can't tell you who they are because they haven't proven anything to me yet, but I KNOW they are sound. You wouldn't know who they are even if you saw their website, because they don't use patriot arguments.&In all the 9 years I have been in this movement I have never heard of this group,&but they have been around as long as I have.&


There is a guy on the lawworks yahoogroup who told us he was recently fired&because he failed to give his SSN.& They hired him without the SSN, but three months later changed their mind.&He said he was one of their best employees too.& He is suing them for wrongful termination, or something like that, and&representing&himself.&Yeah, right. &


Anyway, do whatever you want goldenphoenix.&Sooner or later, I'm sure you will find an employer who will glady hire you without an SSN.& Trust, believe, hope, like Ice and SuiJuris, and eventually your wishes will&come true.


&

[Ice]

<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size=1>"The SSN is a harsh reality-- it shouldn't be that way, but it is, especially for those who&rely&on a&j.o.b. & Even the most invisible, private&person, from time to time, has to use the number.& You can't get rid of the number so&use to your advantage--until you are financially independent. And stop perceiving&the number&as&evil.The number is here to stay.& I don't&like it either, but&SSNs&will&be&here WAY after you and I are&dead and gone-- so quit fighting it,&sit back, relax, and&enjoy the&show."</FONT>


The LAW is the reality.& As I said, if you do nothing to hold others accountable to the law then nothing will change.& All the schemes in the world are worthless as far as holding others to the TRUTH of the LAW.& Finding a way around anothers misinterpretation of the law will only make things more complicated than they need be.


In the case of the guy you know that is representing himself... he may&end up with a decent settlement offer if he can demonstrate that the only reason he was terminated was due to the fact that he did not give them an SS#.& The reason I say this is because the employer will not be able to cite any law that allows them to discriminate against that class of people that do not have SS numbers... and people have obtained settlements in that same instance.


At the very least, he is holding them accountable to the law... and they will then KNOW THE TRUTH.& It will be up to them to keep to the truth once they have learned it.& And anyone that asserted those wrong facts to the employer will have been proven to be wrong.


&

"As I said, if you do nothing to hold others accountable to the law then nothing will change."


And you can't change things overnight, let alone try to change your&(new) boss' way of thinking and his company policies within the first few weeks you are hired.&

[goldphoenix]

To everyone,


Aren't w-2's, w-4's, 1040's, and 1099's, all considered Class 5 Taxes? Estate and Gift Taxes? And isn't there a difference between a wage and income? Wage being a service provided, such as labor, while income is something such as interest gained or something bought then sold for profit without a service of any kind being included in the deal?


And what about people who have a social security number, both those who have received benefits, and those who have not, who simply no longer want to take part in the program for spiritual reasons or because all of the facts weren't shared with them in the contract? I would think if it's voluntary to become involved, it should be voluntary to exit. There is a form to withdraw your original application, isn't there?


Also, I have read varying opinions about whether IRS is a government agency or not. If the IRS is in the U.S.C. under I.R.C., wouldn't this suggest they are a government agency?


From what I understand, there is no "liability" clause in the tax code. One is said to "owe," not to be "liable" for. Is this correct?


Tax Protester, how is it that you protest taxes? Also, I agree that it is difficult to find an employer without using the number. I don't want to go against my beliefs by using the number. At the same time, I have bills to pay and things aren't looking good.


At the same time, isn't this number also used in securing one's party under UCC? And isn't this the only way to access one's strawman account to discharge debt?


So many questions! Just trying to piece the puzzle together.


U.S.C. does state the employer must request the number. They can be fined $50 for not getting the number unless someone produces an affidavit stating they requested the number. In that case, the fine will be waived. The IRS can then match your name up in a database to a number and try to pressure the employer into withholding anyway. The employer is not a withholding agent, though, as defined in U.S.C.


An additional thought, this number is the corporations' number, isn't it? not the flesh and blood man's number? The flesh and blood man is merely a fiduciary for the corporate entity that the government created to control him.


Any comments, additions, thoughts, please?

[Jerseee]

Goldphoenix,

Once again, you are answering your own questions.

Codes, public policy and statutes are for the STRAWMAN. The Constitution is for the Human Being. With that said, why don't you read the one that upholds your rights as a Human Being?

TaxProtester,

I admire your position; however, I loath your logic. Your screename and your position are in conflict. Which tells me something about your logic. Now you are either an agent promoting taxes and for people to pay them or you are a tax protester--and as Kgod would say you can't have it both ways. In addition, you should not argue about something that is not true, i.e. "Protesting Taxes". To protest is to argue.

Now I truly admire your position and how you stand to defend it. You have that right. However, Goldphoenix does not want or need that kind of support you are giving him/her. It is counter productive, conflicting (just as your screename and position), unlawful, irresponsible and a bevy of other unscrupulous acts.

I believe, the question that should be asked is, "Who is liable for IRS taxes?" Not just taxes but, specifically IRS taxes. In the Constitution, it says that Congress shall lay and collect taxes. Codes and statutes are for the commercial person---law (Constitution) is for man.

Now I myself am stuck just as many of us are with the use of SSN. But if I knew then what I know now, I would be in the same position as goldphoenix. This is why I am starting my own business and once that gets going, I will resign and not play in the commercial tax game.

Taxprotester, it is not an overnight thing to do---you are right about that but, how can you sleep night after night knowing that you did nothing over those nights to free yourself one day?

Keep fighting Goldphoenix for your right to work without you labor being taxed.

[FlunkyNoMo]

I had printed some information back on 6/26/2003 from a site called semantechs.com. In trying to go back to them I found that, like with many of the good info site they're not around. (It opens to a "will work for food" thing, which is pretty funny, but wouldn't give me the section with the forms.)
There was a scanned image of a letter from the Depart. of the Treasury, IRS (gone now) referenceing 26 USC Sec. 6109(d) and 26 CFR 31.6011(b) noting that&niether of the codes require you to obtain a SSN.
I did a search and found: www.taxtruth4u.com/nossnforms.html Which appears to be the same forms. I hope this may be of use to the topic at hand, and Sui Juris may wish to add them here just in case they "go away" again.


& FNM

Jerseee wrote: I admire your position; however, I loath your logic. Your screename and your position are in conflict.


My screename is Tax Rebel, not Tax Protestor.&I am&not protesting, as you can read from my posts. You can be a Tax Rebel without&protesting you know.


Now you are either an agent promoting taxes and for people to pay them or you are a tax protester--and as Kgod would say you can't have it both ways.


Believe what you want to believe.I am neither an IRS agent, nor a tax protestor.& How do you like that?&


&However, Goldphoenix does not want or need that kind of support you are giving him/her. It is counter productive, conflicting (just as your screename and position), unlawful, irresponsible and a bevy of other unscrupulous acts.


I support having no SSN, but I do not believe in homelessness either. By all means, fight for your rights, but if you have no other means of support, you'd better have some darn good marketable skills to keep yourself afloat, because that's what you'll be doing--floating.&


I believe, the question that should be asked is, "Who is liable for IRS taxes?" Not just taxes but, specifically IRS taxes. In the Constitution, it says that Congress shall lay and collect taxes. Codes and statutes are for the commercial person---law (Constitution) is for man.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Constitution.& We have a debt base currency system which has nothing to do with the Constitution. Nobody is getting "paid".We have a&perpetual debt machine - steal from&Peter to pay Paul, steal from anywherefrom anyone. That's the name of game.With or without the&SSN& nobody&is gets until our national&debt is&PAID. &


Taxprotester, it is not an overnight thing to do---you are right about that but, how can you sleep night after night knowing that you did nothing over those nights to free yourself one day? Keep fighting Goldphoenix for your right to work without you labor being taxed.


I have done my fair share of fighting for my rights. I haven't totally given up.I don't have what it takes to fight the SSN issue.I like to eat,&and shower everyday.&


I am wagering other battles right now.& IRS and FTB are knocking at my door now.. gotta go.





&


&


&

[goldphoenix]

Originally Posted by TaxRebel

"As I said, if you do nothing to hold others accountable to the law then nothing will change."


And you can't change things overnight, let alone try to change your&(new) boss' way of thinking and his company policies within the first few weeks you are hired.&

I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that ssn is protected by the Privacy Act. Wouldn't company policies that demand you have a number or demand you use a number be against that Act?