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  #1  
Old 08-08-2007, 07:05 AM
Questionmark_Y Questionmark_Y is offline
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The other side's arguments

I would like to respond to this guy.

I would like some good responses and some other points to raise.


Q: Where does the law make me liable to pay an income tax?
A: Section 1 is a part of subtitle A ("Income taxes"), chapter 1 ("Normal taxes and surtaxes"), subchapter A ("Determination of tax liability"), part I ("Tax on individuals"). It says that it imposes a tax on married individuals filing joint returns, surviving spouses, heads of households, unmarried individuals (anybody who is neither married, nor a surviving spouse, nor a head of a household), and married individuals who do not make joint returns - this seems to be pretty inclusive. This is exactly where you are made liable to pay an income tax. (If you dispute the answer, answer the question I have asked you about a dozen times: do you believe that the law imposes a tax on you, but doesn't make you liable to pay it?)

Q: What does it impose a tax on?
A: "Taxable income", as defined elsewhere.

Q: Where is taxable income defined?
A: Sections 62 and 63 define taxable income as gross income minus deductions, and section 61 defines gross income as any income from any source, unless specifically excluded by law.

Q: What items are excluded from gross income?
A: Refer to part II and part III of subchapter B, chapter 1, entitled "Items specifically included in gross income" and "Items specifically excluded from gross income", respectively.

Q: Are wages income?
A: Yes. Section 61 explicitly lists "compensation for services" as a part of gross income, and so have courts repeatedly ruled.

Q: Aren't wages a source of income, rather than income itself?
A: If you were to read section 61 in this way, you would also have to conclude that "gross income derived from business" and "income from life insurance and endowment contracts" and "income from an interest in an estate or trust" and "gains derived from dealings in property" are also not income, but rather a source of income; to say that income is not income makes no sense. And in any case this distinction is irrelevant. The law includes any income (unless specifically excluded) in gross income, regardless of what source it is derived from; the indisputable fact is that if you are paid 100$ for your work, you have earned an income of 100$ - no matter whether you choose to call wages "income" or "a source of income".

Q: I mean, the law only imposes a tax on income I somehow derive from wages etc., such as by re-investing them; wages themselves are not a part of gross income.
A: Nonsense. What part of "all income" you don't understand? The words "from whatever source derived" cannot be understood as restricting the meaning of "gross income"; all income comes from ("is derived from") some source - this is a truism.

Q: Do I get to deduct my living expenses from my income?
A: No; not just that the law generally does not provide for such a deduction, but section 262 specifically excludes living expenses from being deductible (except as provided otherwise in the law). You can substract the standard deductions defined in section 63 (you can think of this as representing your cost of living) and a few other items as provided by section 62. Alternately, you can choose to itemize your deductions; these items are described in subchapter B (in chapter 1, subitle A), parts VI and VII (in the case of a corporation, parts VI and VIII) - see also part IX for other items that you can't substract.

Q: Exactly who is liable to pay an income tax?
A: Residents (as defined by section 7701) and citizens of the United States under section 1, and non-resident aliens as provided by section 871 (imposing a tax on their income from a source within United States) and 877 (individuals who have lost the U.S. citizenship in order to avoid paying taxes continue to be taxed under this section for the following 10 years). For citizens and residents of the United States there is no such exception, so they are liable to pay taxes on all income, regardless of its country of origin. (See section 2 and the regulations for section 1.)

Q: Where does the law demand that I make a return?
A: Sections 6001, 6011, and 6012, combined with the fact that you are liable to pay an income tax as imposed by section 1.

Q: What is the effect of the 16th Amendment?
A: According to previous court decisions (starting with Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co.) taxes on income derived from property were direct taxes subject to apportionment. The amendment reversed the rulings, saying that any income from any source can be taxed without apportionment. It didn't really make anything taxable that couldn't be taxed before; Congress already had a power to impose taxes. (However, imposing income taxes with apportionment was impractical; while the Congress could have taxed wages and the like without apportionment even before the amendment, they chose not to.)

Q: Section 1 does not come up in some search; 861 does.
A: Okay. So what?

Q: What does section 861 say anyway?
A: It neither gives a tax rate, nor says who is liable for a tax, nor defines taxable income, nor sets the tax rate. It explains when income and expenses and deductions are to be treated as coming from a source within United States. (And the following section does the same for income etc. from outside United States; section 863 states that items that the law assigns to neither of the two categories will be assigned to one or both in accordance with the appropriate regulations - look for numbers starting with "1.863".) This is relevant if you are a non-resident alien; if you are a U.S. citizen or resident, then you must pay taxes on all your taxable income regardless of the source, and if you want to compute what part of your taxable income comes from sources in USA, you are doing it for your pleasure.

Q: Some law (or regulation) says that term X "includes" item Y; this means that it doesn't include item Z, otherwise thought of as a part of term X, because it is not listed.

A: No. Section 7701 says: "The terms 'includes' and 'including' when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined."
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:10 PM
farmer_giles_of_ham farmer_giles_of_ham is offline
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Good to see some clarity in this- there are a lot of bad arguements out there. BUT... all this begs the question: "what is gross income". Like you mentioned in re: the 16th amendment, nothing has substantially changed over the years as to taxable SOURCES.

The fact is, using capital gains tax as an example, that mathematically there is always a 'zero' balance of gains and losses. The basis cost for any capital later exchanged for money, is 100% of the receipt. If I build a house and sell it, I will be taxed on the sale price minus basis. Yet the basis is EVERYTHING, including my time. Keep in mind I did not receive any money 'for my time', no wage, salary etc but it certainly cost that time, as sure as if I paid anyone else to do the same thing.

Its like, I make 100 bux a day to hang drywall. I exchange the finished product for money. Apart from business expenses, what was the basis cost for that particular piece of capital? (the ownership of hanged-on drywall)? How much did I pay for it? I paid a day of work for it. How much is a day of work worth? 100 bux. So I spent 100 bux in basis cost and got in return 100 bux- an even transaction.

The fact is someone would have to go out on a limb, so to speak, and characterize some particular movements of money as "gross income". That takes 1st hand knowledge. Who was the money for, and for what was the money? Was it a loan? A pre-paid credit? A debt-re-payment? Does it have ANY character at all? Who knows?

Until I get paid my day's wage I am at a loss. I could deduct bad debts as such on a tax declaration. I am at
negative 100 (my daily pay) until I get paid the postive 100 due, which makes zero.

So gross income must be be akin to the scheme a franchisee enters into, like a Mcdonalds owner. I can't claim to the parent co. that everything is a basis cost, because my agreement with them specifically contemplates that I will declare all "proceeds" from the business as "gross income", and then allow for certain deductions. That's not logical in the mathematic sense- it's logical in a legal sense. It's the nature of the relationship, we count forward from positive and then subtract allowable negatives. In nature everything is always in balance so without a special regime the gain is always zero.

Just between the fact of the gift exemption, deductions, private movement, foot-dragging, invisibility, etc basically no one anywhere in the world has to pay declaratory taxes. Let them do the work and send me a bill. Its actually pretty easy.

Last edited by farmer_giles_of_ham : 08-08-2007 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:54 PM
ThomPaine ThomPaine is offline
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I dont know who the person is with whom you are conversing, however it is very clear to me that he is a bonehead and doesnt understand tax law, principles, statutes, regulations and constitutional limits of taxation.

Love him or hate him Larken Rose has done a lot of your work for you. You can download his latest taxable income report for free from www.theftbydeception.com. Read it, read it and then read it again. It is full of well researched info. I am not putting him on a pedastal, just saying that he has done a lot of research over the years and argued a lot of points. Dont take my word or his word or anyone else's word for anything. Go look it up for yourself, USC 26 is available on line and is freely searchable. Ask questions to government myrmidons will get you nowhere. There is tons of info on here and I have researched many topics related to taxes for about 10 years and I still learn new stuff on a regular basis. I have a good grasp on things, but dont know everthing by any means.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:37 PM
ThomPaine ThomPaine is offline
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I have answered most of the questions posted above, hope this helps. Read, read, read and then read some more. Mostly statutes and regulations, especially the old ones.

Q: Where does the law make me liable to pay an income tax?
A: It most likely doesn’t. The law is very specific as to what it applies to. The IRC spells out exactly what is taxable and what is not. The income that Congress can and cannot tax, as well as the statutes and regulations supporting this have been constant for many decades.

Q: What does it impose a tax on?
A: Taxable income, which is very generally defined in section 63, under the premise that is a general definition and that income, taxable income, gross income etc can be more specifically defined elsewhere in the code and the specific definition always over rides a general one.

Q: Where is taxable income defined?
A: Sections 62 and 63 define taxable income as gross income minus deductions, and section 61 defines gross income as any income from any source, unless specifically excluded by law. [this is actually mostly correct, your income is most likely excluded by fundamental and statutory law. So if you don’t have any gross income, you cant have taxable income]

Q: What items are excluded from gross income?
A: Refer to part II and part III of subchapter B, chapter 1, entitled "Items specifically included in gross income" and "Items specifically excluded from gross income", respectively. [Again, this is mostly correct, but there are other places in the code that discuss this. Along with that you should include basic principles of law, definitions, fundamental law, etc. Most likely you dont have any gross income, so dont worry about what is excluded from it.]

Q: Are wages income?
A: Yes. Section 61 explicitly lists "compensation for services" as a part of gross income, and so have courts repeatedly ruled. [I have never bought into the wages are not income argument. I don’t care whether they are income or not, because I know that my wages are not TAXABLE income. If you desire, look up definitions for words in the sections that you are questioning. Often words dont mean what you think they do.]

Q: Aren't wages a source of income, rather than income itself?
A: Wages are not the source of income, like you are thinking. The source has to do with location and the type of earning. For example, the IRS will most likely tell you that life insurance proceeds are not taxable as income, neither are some grants and many municipal bonds. So there are things that are ‘income from sources’ that are not taxable as income. What the IRS fails to realize (or fails to acknowledge) is simply that the scope of the income tax is very narrow. It is completely legal and constitutional, just grossly mis-applied.

Q: I mean, the law only imposes a tax on income I somehow derive from wages etc., such as by re-investing them; wages themselves are not a part of gross income.
A: Not sure what you are saying here, maybe referring to profit earned, which doesnt really come into play here. If you live and work in a state and your income comes from that state and you don’t have income from a foreign country, you are not a US citizen, etc., your earnings are not taxable. I don’t care if it rental property income or $5 an hour from McDonalds.

Q: Do I get to deduct my living expenses from my income?
A: This is completely irrelevant, you have not gross income and you have no taxable income if certain conditions are met, don’t worry about what you can deduct. It’s like the old joke about the cheap hooker. A man says will you sleep with me for $1000 and the girl says hell yeah I will… He says what about for $10? She says no way, what do you think I am?? He replies, we have already established what you are and what we are doing, now we need to agree on a price!

If you are talking about deductions and credits or hearings or payment plans or any of that crap, you are playing their game by their rules and have most likely already lost. With a few exceptions you are dealing with the crooks, don’t expect them to help you or tell you the truth about anything, especially something that hurts them and helps you.

Q: Exactly who is liable to pay an income tax?
A: Foreigners earning domestic income, US Citizens earning domestic and foreign income, people participating in BATF activity, and a few others and thats about it. There are lots of perfectly legal ways to earn tax free income while living and working in one of the 50 states.

Q: Where does the law demand that I make a return?
A: The law requires you to make a return (think about that word) of income, if you have taxable income that you are due back or if you owe income taxes to the IRS. If you don’t have taxable income and therefore don’t owe any taxes, why in the world would you file an income tax return?? Do some research on the history of a 'return' looking up definitions, etc. It will tell you a lot.

Q: What is the effect of the 16th Amendment?
A: This has been covered to death, but in simple terms it prevented direct taxes from being taken out of the category of apportioned taxes. Indirect taxes are essentially excise or use taxes and this is the category that income taxes and almost all other taxes that we know are in. If you pay ad valorem tax on your vehicle it is a use tax. If you pay tax when you buy beer or cigarettes, that is a use tax, etc. If your income originates from a source that is deemed to be special or privileged activity or it comes from certain sources, then you must pay an activity tax on it. If it does not meet this criteria, then your income is not taxable as income. I dont care personally whether it was ratified correctly or passed or whateve, it gave no new taxing powers to Congress.

Q: Section 1 does not come up in some search; 861 does.
A: Have no idea what this is. You can search the USC 26 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title26/title26.html

Q: What does section 861 say anyway?
A: Read Larken’s Taxable Income Report if you are interested in this section. I am not going to get into that here.

Q: Some law (or regulation) says that term X "includes" item Y; this means that it doesn't include item Z, otherwise thought of as a part of term X, because it is not listed.

A: All statutes must be read in light of the Constitution and cannot extend beyond the limits of the authority that created them. If Congress doesn’t have the power to tax green frogs kept as pets, but some agency tries to tax your pet green frog, then its very simple to determine whether they have the ability to tax that item or not. The power to lay and collect taxes is granted by the Constitution, but of course there are limits on what can be taxed. Can Congress tax a Frenchman living in an apt in Paris and walking down the street everyday to work at his families bakery?? Of course not.... Statutes typically do not extend to matters not specifically pointed out, which is what I think you are referring to. So if a statutes says green, red, blue and yellow frogs can be kept as pets with a special permit from the Department of Natural Resources, don’t assume that statute also applies to white or brown frogs. If they were to be included, they should have been put on that list.
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Last edited by ThomPaine : 08-08-2007 at 10:52 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-08-2007, 11:18 PM
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SKYGZR SKYGZR is offline
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Liability

Questionmark_Y,

Begin by locating the Liability STATUTE in Title 26, but before you waste time

You should begin here:

http://www.supremelaw.org/sls/31answers.htm


(Hint/Reason: There is NO LIABILITY STATUTE (ie:law),
No Statute, No Liability (for those "outside" of the "Zone")

You may also wish to delve into:

http://www.supremelaw.org/fedzone11/index.htm
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