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  #1  
Old 11-29-2004, 08:36 AM
quadl quadl is offline
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FTB tax Lien

Hello all,

I am new to posting yet have been reading for some time. My question is to those who have dealt with the FTB in removing tax liens. Is the lien for real, by that I mean is it a perfected lien? Can I remove it? What should I do about it? Any help or direction is greatly appreciated.

I have 2 liens, one on myself and one on my wife for the same years and I also have a garnishment in place on my salary.

Thanks,

Bill
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2004, 09:16 AM
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rushpat rushpat is offline
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You've got company in this forum. Did they send a "Notice of State Tax Lien"? If so, then you might try the methods others have used to remove the bogus notices from the IRS, as both the FTB and the IRS usually only issue a computer generated notice when no real UCC lien is in place. This involves going to your SoS (Secretary of State) or Clerk of the Superior court for you state, wherein the lien office resides (If you are still in California, I think it is the SoS), and do a UCC-11 search for any and all liens with your name on it.

If the FTB never bothered to get a real court judgment, then there won't be one. Then, you have to get something in writing from them stating this, and then go to the county recorder's office where the notice is stored in your county, and file a UCC-3 addendum with orders to remove it. Here's how one guy did it in Tennessee on an IRS notice:

http://web.archive.org/web/200402171...2/08_27_02.htm

Also, keep searching through the forum here. Someone linked to a step-by-step document recently that says how to do it, although they cautioned that it doesn't work 100% of the time. I would think that as long as you are polite and act like you know what you are doing, they will comply at the county recorders office.

Then, assuming you have gotten the Notice removed by the county recorder, get evidence of this from the form they fill out. You might also see if you can get them to sign something stating that it was removed from their records.

Finally, you get the Credit Reporting Agencies to try to verify the entries on your credit report. If they come back and give you any static, you need to show them the SoS and County Recorder's statements that there is no lien or even a notice of lien on record any more.

As for your garnishment, this is a problem with your employer, not the FTB. The FTB most likely sent an unsigned, unnamed, anonymous letter requesting earnings to be withheld. It's probably easier to get the employer not to start in the first place than to stop after starting.

First of all, make sure they aren't taking more than 25% as some go overboard. Secondly, if this is tied to a ficticious lien, then you'll need to show them evidence that it was never so, and that they are taking money without authorization which will make them liable. I'm not sure but I think the penalties can be up to 3x the amount taken. It would be personally against the person that authorized it in your payroll dept.

You must consider the possibility that it might take a lawsuit to get them to stop. You might also consider petitioning a court to get a temporary injunction in light of the fact that there is no evidence that there ever was a lien in the first place.

KenG's videos (www.showmethelaw.net), suggests writing another unnamed, unsigned anonymous letter to the payroll dept like the IRS does releasing the lien. I'm not sure how serious he was, but the thinking is that the IRS hid their identity when asking the company to steal your money, so there's no way they can prove that one from you that looks like theirs didn't come from them.

Anyone else care to jump in here with suggestions?

The FTB is bugging me too, but they aren't to the point of a notice of lien, and I'm in another state, which may make it harder. Even if they were to break their habits and get a judgment, it would have to be transferred from California to my state, but I don't expect them to even do that.

In my state, there is a state statute that says that no part of a person's withholding shall be withheld without a summons of garnishment (which comes from a court judgment), so I've got this to use as well. You should check your state.

If you are in California, I would strongly suggest you move. I was there for 1 year, and it just wasn't worth the hassle that the state gov't puts you through.

Last edited by rushpat : 11-29-2004 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 11-29-2004, 10:56 AM
quadl quadl is offline
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Rushpat,

Thanks for the info. I ran a UCC-11 with the SoS online and there is nothing! I requested a certification of that also. So what else can i do?

As to the garnishment, it is for a previous tax matter I have and I have found it to be to my advantage to leave it there, it has prevented them from garnishing my for anything else, another story.

Bill
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Old 11-29-2004, 06:43 PM
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weishaupt1776 weishaupt1776 is offline
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I tell ya, since I got my notice of intent to lien, I'm seriously considering doing the lien on the strawman thing.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:37 AM
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Why not get a friend to put a friendly lien on you. Unfortunately, it will have to be someone you trust to hand the money back to you after they get it?

Why not set up a trust or anonymous LLC, and get them to lien you? Each state has a maximum amount that can be liened as a total aggregate of your pay. Put it to the max, then no one else will be able to lien you. If it is a trust or LLC that you have control of, then you can get your money back in a roundabout way.

Or, just put the pressure on your employer to follow the law and require a court order as any good Fiduciary should do (see Williamson VS Boulder Dam Credit Union).

Quadl: Get that tax lien removed as it is stealing money from your family. Force your employer to stop taking money without a court order. As for the lien, now that you have the UCC-11 search results showing no real lien, get the county recorder to remove it by using the UCC-3 form as described above, and take the notice from the SoS that there isn't a real lien in place. You should be prepared to be rejected, as the county recorders are under pressure to keep those notices in place. Be calm and kind and you might prevail. If not, get them on the phone with someone in the SoS that can instruct them on what to do. If they still don't budge, you should consider a court action to force them to remove it because they illegally converted a mere notice to an active lien where none existed. Fraud, RICO, racketeering, etc.

Weis: Is this the IRS or state tax agency? If state tax agency, what state?

Last edited by rushpat : 11-30-2004 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 11-30-2004, 05:37 AM
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weishaupt1776 weishaupt1776 is offline
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Rush, I'm in Florida, so it is just the District of Criminals. Man the friendly lien reminds me of the Stones tune (with a slight alteration).
"We all need someone who can lien us.
Just lien on me."
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Last edited by weishaupt1776 : 11-30-2004 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 11-30-2004, 07:28 AM
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Quadl: here's a link... 2nd item from the top:

http://www.cs4u.com/ucc/reading/IRS/
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Old 11-30-2004, 07:39 AM
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Interesting, the IRS OWN PUBLICATION, REMOVAL OF TAX LIEN says that they release the lien if a bond is posted or if it becomes legally unenforceable. So could we use the CPN w/HJR 192 as a bond? Is a promissory note a bond?
Or the friendly lien could make it legally unenforcable.
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Old 11-30-2004, 07:54 AM
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Well, a bond, like a CPN, is a promise to pay.
Rice McLeod was big on bonds, but hasn't talked much about them in a while. I think some institutions were stealing them and then still trying to get cash or check payments.

Not long ago, he said on his radio program that the bonds they used before was lacking in one key area, and that a former banker has helped them perfect it.

Here's a webpage that describes it:
http://tapes.ziby.net/index15.html


On the subject of levies, this might be interesting:
http://www.supremelaw.org/rsrc/banklevy/index.htm
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  #10  
Old 12-03-2004, 09:32 AM
quadl quadl is offline
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Rush and others,

Within California the code states this is a statutory lien that arises from law. How is this different from a judgement lien if at all? Anyone have any input on removing liens in California?

Thanks,
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