IRS forcing W-4 exemption status "HELP!"

[weishaupt1776]

Originally Posted by rushpat

Ask around the HR/payroll department to find out who would be the one person who would approve of changing your withholding status based on any correspondence with the IRS.

When you find out who this is, take some time and schedule a meeting with this man/woman. Tell them that they are being put on notice (put this in writing too), that they are not to change your withholding without your permission. Ask them if they are willing to be legally held liable for any withholding without your permission based on an unsigned, anonymous, computer generated letter from the IRS. Ask them if they know your personal situation intimately enough to be doing this without your authorization or a court order.

When they find out that they will be held personally, legally liable for the amounts taken, plus damages, they might be willing to ask the IRS to give them either a court order or have someone from the IRS willing to identify themselves and sign their own name to any orders.

I believe that an appointment of fiduciary is in order for this one.

Wargames, can please upload a boilerplate for this gent?

Chuck, by appointing the "go-to-guy" fiduciary, you are creating a duty for them, and should they breach it - you can get them for breach of fiduciary duty.
Should they not refuse the appt IN WRITING, they tacitly accept the duty(put all of this in your contract.

You should also, surreptitiously find out who their legal counsel is.

Tell them that your life insurance company needs to know who the attorneys are in order for you to complete your paperwork or some B.S. like that

[Smith]

sections 3402(n) states people can claim exemp

3402(P) states that the withholding agreement can can be ended

at any time



all from a copy of the title 26 the internal revenue code that I own.

[rushpat]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

[b]. If you continue to annoy them with this nonsense, they would probably simply tell your boss what a nut you are and get you fired.

Good luck.

Excellent. Wrongful dismissal suit against the company. That's called "cashing out".

You may also want to watch the KenG videos over at:

showmethelaw.net

They are free for download. There's an enormous amount of info there, but it is well worth the time. They are under the "classes" section.

[rushpat]

Here's something you should try. Don't be confrontational and threatening. Act like you are their friend, trying to help them avoid a very bad situation. Ask to see the letter from the IRS. Point out that it isn't signed. Ask how they even know this is really from the IRS and not some guy on the other side of town that is mad at you and trying to cause problems. They wouldn't want to be giving money away for the wrong reason. Wouldn't they be held personally liable for not following up to make sure it was legit? What if it was a computer error at the IRS? No one signed it, so how do we know it is right?

Tell them to write back to the IRS, asking for the positive identification of someone in charge. This will not be a refusal to act, but they need to make sure they have their rear-end covered, legally, before they can act. Offer to write the response for them, since HR/payroll can be notoriously lazy at times (don't say that part to them . Let them look it over before sending, etc.

Tell them that this is probably just a mix up and your response will force someone to look into it and correct the computer error. Tell them that this type of problem happens all the time and that the IRS will almost never even reply after the company asks for backup documentation to make sure this withholding order is legit.

Just act competent, don't lose your cool, act like you are trying to help them out of a sticky situation, even if they don't know they are in the middle of one. You'd be surprised how much that helps. Also, they'll need to get hold of some sort of judgment against you to make this valid. Just a simple demand doesn't hold water. You might even make a note of the Boulder Dam Credit union case stated earlier in the thread. You might want to make a note about the recent Schulz VS IRS decision (found on givemeliberty.org) that states that an IRS order, absent a court order, has no power:

http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLaws...2005-07-04.htm

Remember, the goal is to get them to look for backup documentation and support to make sure they are legally covered before they start giving your money away.

You might also want to look up in your state statutes online (if your state has them online), and look under garnishment regulations. A while back, when one state revenue agency (another state from where I am now) was threatening me with paycheck garnishment and seizure of bank accounts, I found that my own state's rules said that a very particular order, coming from a judgment in this state is required before any garnishment or seizures can take place. I also confirmed this with my bank and company. That other state agency never even tried anything. Your state might have something like that as well. Your HR guy wouldn't want to be violating state regulations in his zeal to give all your money away, would he?

You may also want to run a UCC-11 search at your UCC office in your state to see if there are any IRS liens on file (usually not). Get this in writing if there isn't. Also, go to your county / state court house. Ask them to get a copy of any court judgment by the IRS against you. If there isn't one on file, get that in writing. Make this part of your package for them, or in case you have to sue them. More evidence that there wasn't any legit backing for the IRS to get them to withhold.

Make sure you have section 3402(n) of the IRC written down, which states that you can terminate withholding on your end. You have a right to.

If they still say no and are going to do it, without even trying to make sure the order is legit, you'll then want to get their name and personal information. Let them know (this must be the person who makes the final decision at your company), that they will be held liable in a court action by you against them personally (not in their capacity at your company, but personally, as they made the decision). Perhaps they are in collusion to take your money? Why else would they not even try to make sure that they have a legal requirement to take your money without even trying to make sure that everything is legit? The company won't be able to defend them and the IRS surely will disappear and not be found to help them out. That's one of the reasons the IRS doesn't sign anything. It then shifts the responsibility to the HR Payroll dept at the company, if things go bad in court.

Perhaps a small claims court action would be okay. Don't be afraid to ask legal counsel about getting an injunction on any withholding, due to the fact that the guy who authorized it is going to be sued for his actions (or lack of actions, in this case).

Remember, confident, non-confrontational, helpful, reluctant-but-willing to sue to protect your interests.

[iamfreeru2]

The above post from RP is very good information and instruction. I would follow what is said in his post. There have been others that have followed similar instruction and have had the matter resolved. Like RP has said DO NOT be confrontational and offer your help. You will get allot further that way.

[Skeptic]

Here's something you should try. Don't be confrontational and threatening. Act like you are their friend, trying to help them avoid a very bad situation. Ask to see the letter from the IRS. Point out that it isn't signed. Ask how they even know this is really from the IRS and not some guy on the other side of town that is mad at you and trying to cause problems.

Yeah, that'll work... as long as you are telling the person paranoid fantasies without a shread of evidence but are NICE about it, they'll believe you. Right.

Skeptic,

from the sounds of your post. You have experience in this area. If that is true, then provide the proof that your opinion/perception is true and that everyone else is false!

That's not hard to do. Let us start with IRS's own March, 2004 note of the "12 top tax scams":

5. EMPLOYMENT TAX EVASION. The IRS has seen a number of illegal schemes that instruct employers not to withhold federal income tax or other employment taxes from wages paid to their employees. These schemes are based on an incorrect interpretation of "Section 861" and other parts of the tax law and have been refuted in court. Recent court cases have resulted in criminal convictions of promoters. Employer participants could also be held responsible for back payments of employment taxes, plus penalties and interest. Employees who have no withholdings are still responsible for payment of their personal taxes.

Indeed, **** Simalkin, the owner of Arrow Plastics who refused to withold his employee's wages, is now in jail.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't like the fact that employers withold. I am quite sympathetic to **** Simalkin, who claims that he is not a collection agency and it's not his moral responsiblity to withold taxes for the IRS. But nevertheless, that is the law.

So, now, your employer has two choices: to agree to your request, get in trouble with the IRS themselves and possibly go to jai, or to disagree with it, and--at most--be subject to an empty threat of a "lawsuit" from you for doing so, which they will win for sure (there hasn't been a single case when such a "lawsuit" had won.)

These are the facts. It is not hard to see what your employer will choose, is it?

[swguitar]

you folks should know that sooner or later we were going to get some lawyers or judges on this board ,, skeptic is probably one of them here trying to create disinformation and doubt they are scared boys we are winning in the war of words and they dont know what to do.. dont give this guy the time of day hes a wanna be with no place to go. so go play on your merry go round skeptic and you can be the bully there all by yourself

See Ya!!!!!!!!!!!

Skeptic Tank reminds me of a lawyer that wrote me an email after sending "his client" a letter of demand.

I was basically testing the waters, but this lawyer wrote me and said: "Any further communication on this issue, contact me," then he proceeded to make several legal determinations.

When I asked him to back the legal determinations up with fact, he retorted: "It's of such common knowledge that everyone knows that's the truth."

Then I said: "If it's of such common knowledge, as you claim, there should be an easily accessible written authority on the matter. Please provide that, or you are full of hot air."

Then, he became enraged, telling me not to write him any further.

I had a great laugh out of this. Attorneys, while they are pedigreed, are not stable. Any chemistry that doesn't come from "their books" is a recipe for a volatile situation, and, quite often, recipes that are solely from "their books" are recipes for a volatile situation.

In other words, CAUTION: ATTORNEYS - COMPRESSED HOT AIR. USE WITH EXTREME CAUTION.


Henry Franklin

[chuckhs12]

Skeptic,

I want to thank you for proving that you fear the IRS and other Government Agencies. There is no need to go any further with you!
If it is real, then why do they feel the need to threaten?

RP and others,

Thank you very much for the info. and comments you have supplied. I have a great deal of research ahead of me to take the proper and non-confrontational approuch.

Thanks,
Chuck

[Skeptic]

The problem, Mr. Bowman, is that like all tax protestor "Victories", your story is one without the slightest bit of verification. It is always "somebody told me", "an attorney I knew", etc., etc. It is never a victory in court, or anything that is public record. It's always nothing but the unsupported word of the Tax Protestor.

On the other hand, the IRS's victories are public: this Tax Protestor went to jail, that one too, the third one as well--all of it being public record in open court, not simply the IRS's word. Somehow, I trust this far more than I trust the unverified "victories" claimed on this site.